Vitamin B12 analogs in soy are not absorbed???

[beansprout]

"Vitamin B12 analogs in soy are not absorbed and actually increase the body's requirement for B12"
This came from the westonaprice.com website. It is a bit alarming for me b/c I do rely on fortified soy/meat analogs for my B12 quite a bit. Is Brewers yeast the only reliable form of B12 for vegans?
Thanks for any insight!

[ynaffit]

afaik, miso and tempeh are the only foods which may naturally contain b12 analogs. when they fortify soymilk and such, they use the real vitamin.

[MollyGoat]

:rolleyes: Weston Price strikes again.

Cyanobalamin is not a B12 "analog." It really is real B12, and a reliable source of it. This is what soy meats are fortified with.

[beforewisdom]

Weston Price has a reputation for being fairly anti vegetarian.

Soy is the source of all evil.

Grains have so many phytates that they are worthless as a source of minerals.

Vegetables may have beta carotene but that is no substitute for vitamin A, which also needs the fat in animal products to be useful.

On and on they go.

They strongly advocate the consumption of organically raised grass fed beef.

If you look around their site you will find their page describing their funding which they claim is from independant farmers.

Given they type of foods they put a lot of energy into trashing you use the process of elimination to come to a good guess what kind of food the farmers who fund them produce.

[beforewisdom]

Read all about b-12 on

http://www.veganhealth.org

[zoebird]

as with any web site, read their source materials. The information in any article (pro or anti vegetarian) can be misused, misinterpreted, or have very different meanings for certain terms such as "soy." So, look to their bibliography and follow those articles.

cynocoblamin is a form of b12, but it's not the most absorbable form. Coblamin is the most absorbable form, which only comes from animal products. It's found in vegetarian animal products: eggs and dairy. cynocoblamin is used as the most common b12 fortifier in soy foods (such as soy milk). coblamin may be found in soy (tofu, tempeh, and miso) that is *lacto fermented* which means it has a dairy origin (hence "lacto").

to WAP, soy is not evil. modern soy is questionable, as are all of it's uses. BUT traditional, lacto-fermented soy products, in moderate consumption is considered healthy. moderate consumption is roughly 3 grams per day, which is quite a lot of nutrients. In the US, it's fairly difficult to find lacto fermented traditional soy made with more traditional beans (all soy beans have been bred over the years for certain elements, but the asian versions are "older" versions than US versions, which have been bred in such a way to concentrate particular nutrients, which makes them an "unhealthy" base products--at least, according to elders who can make traditional soy in our area, which is philadelphia). Therefore, i personally forgo modern soy products.

grains do have a lot of phylates, but that doesn't make them worthless. WAP advocates the use of grains, in moderation, and always well soaked and/or sprouted which seems to solve the phylate problem. This is why we have moved from regular "whole grain" flour (such as "whole wheat flour") to sprouted whole grain flours/breads. Other grains that we eat, such as barley, quinoa, farro, millet, oats, etc, are all soaked for 12 to 14 hours and rinsed a number of times before boiled.

beta carotene is a precursor to vitamin A, and does need fat in order to absorb, since it is a fat soluable vitamin. the production of vitamin A from beta carotene may be inefficient and not able to meet an individual's need for vitamin A. Animal sources (such as eggs and dairy) give sources of vitamin a, plus good fats for it, without the need for conversion. Perhaps it is simply a more efficient method of procuring vitamin A. But, in many cases, people can convert it fine from beta carotenes and if they consume other fats (olive oil and the like) the vitamin has it's fat to settle into.

The site does go on and on, just as any other site (such as yours steve), but that doesn't mean that the information on either site is completely garbage simply because it comes from a particular premise.

Many of the members of WAP are regular citizens and independent farmers (usually organic and biodynamic), similar to PCRM which is predominently citizens and a few physicians (not as many as they claim, either). WAP is an advocacy organization, trying to improve the quality of food product available. Their real issue isn't with vegetarianism or whatever, it's with food quality. They advocate for organic, biodynamic farming methods for all foods. I think this is one area that i can definately support--at the very least for environmental reasons.

BTW, Ryan and I are members of this organization. I'm not really a member of any vegetarian organizations, though i am a member of a number of environmental ones. to me WAP is part environmental organization.

[CarbLover]

You can either be vegan or believe the information on Weston Price. You can't do both. They don't think any B12 sources other than animal products are useable, among other things which have already been mentioned. They clearly have a vendetta against vegetarianism, as evidenced by their "vegetarian myths" section. Just take comfort in the fact that if their information was actually correct, most of us would be severely ill if not dead. We're not, so whatever.

[MollyGoat]

Cyanocobalamin, as you say, zoebird, is not the most absorbable form of B12--but it is absorbable, as you can see when someone who has a deficiency begins to take it and their deficiency is resolved. It's important to overshoot with B-12 and take more than you need, IMO. I have a 400 mcg sublingual that I take about 3 times a week, to be on the safe side.

Conversion of carotenoids to vitamin A should not be a problem if you are eating enough carotenoid-rich foods. It's like the way people worry about compromising their nutrient-absorption by eating a lot of fiber--if you're eating enough nutrients, it's nothing to worry about.

[zoebird]

carblover:

you're absolutely right; they are against veganism. They are not unsupportive of vegetarianism per se. At least, that's the way i read them.

and, many vegans are very sick, and have to forgo veganism. i've known many from this board, and many IRL. Since the numbers of vegans is actually very small (that is, 4% of the population is "vegetarian" which may include people who eat fish and call themselves vegetarian, and even a smaller percentage of that is vegan), it's hard to say that it's a diet for everyone, that it's healthy across the board, etc. But, there are healthy vegans.

Molly:

i agree. but, cynocoblamin version of B12 may not be absorbed by some people, which i remember someone here on VB mentioning within the past few days. She took sublingual cynocoblamin b12, and it didn't resolve her b12 issue. So, she went back to animal products and that resolved her b12 issue.

Ultimately, everyone has to take in all of the information out there, and then make a decision that they think is best. I think it's best for me to consume animal products to recieve the appropriate nutrients in an efficient manner. I think that it's appropriate because the sources that i've chosen are what i consider humane. Even as a vegan, i didn't agree with the idea of no human-animal interaction, so i think that this idea of using animal products from appropriate sources is still an extention of my inherent values.

but essentially, i agree with both of you. If you want to take supplements and be vegan, then you can. I would suggest, though, that all vegans move toward a more whole-foods diet, rather than relying on processed foods like i once did (particularly when i first started) such as soy milk, soy yogurt, soy cheese, veggieburgers, etc. I think that the healthiest vegan diet i had was when i was only consuming 2-4 servings of soy milk a day, lots of raw fruits and veggies, and then lots of legumes and grains.

basicly, my day looked like this as a vegan:

2 servings of soy milk and 2-3 peices of fruit
nuts and seeds and fruit (or a smoothie)
large salad (like 2 sm heads of lettuce with lots of different veggies and sprouted beans)
cut veggies and hummus dip
cooked dinner: soup/cili, grain salad or bread with some beans/bean dip, veggies, and then fruit
fruit and sometimes more soy milk here.

most everything was made at home, made from good ingredients. I ate very little processed food--except breads which i bought sprouted (i'm learning how to make sprouted bread now), and pasta which i'm currently switching from harder to digest grains like whole wheat to easier to digest grains like buckwheat. I would even make home-made ice cream with soy milk or make sorbet at home. that was usually my evening dessert. :) Also, i consumed a lot of uncooked oils. I would put coconut oil in my smoothies (still do), i use olive, hemp, flax seed, or some other oil on my salads or when i made hummus and the like. i often use coconut oil in the sorbets that i make.

And, if you want, take vitamins on top of that--which gives you excess, like molly goat mentioned.

I added eggs back in before reading WAP (or finishing their materials) because of a cholesterol problem i was having. So, my diet changed by adding eggs into my snacks a couple of times a week or having eggs for breakfast on the weekends and for dinner one nite a week. i still ate basicly the same, and heck, i still do--except now, i don't do soy milk and i'm adding in raw dairy products (at least, seeing how they work for me or not). But, basicly before and after i was "off the charts" in the nutrient spectrum in my blood work, though now my cholesterol is back on track.

Essentially, i think it is possible, but i don't like the idea of taking or using supplements. I like the idea of 'natural whole foods' as opposed to fortified foods (such as the soy milk that i drank to get vit b12, among others) and i think it is healthier (more efficient for the body, etc). I also think that it is humane if you support biodynamic/organic farms and know those farms well, rather than just buying any grocery-store dairy product.

So, it's interesting how we agree and disagree. :D

[Wolfie]

and, many vegans are very sick, and have to forgo veganism. i've known many from this board, and many IRL.

I ate a crappy vegan diet for probably about the first 10 years. I went vegan for ethical reasons w/o doing any research. I was one of those "junk food vegans" that healthy vegans despise for making them look bad. I was tired a lot but I didn't get severely ill and was able to turn things around in less than a month and have felt great after doing some research and getting enough protein and B12.

I find it hard to believe the majority of people can't stay vegan if they do the research and eat a proper diet. If they have soy and wheat allergies it might be difficult, or the rare low cholesterol problem you had, but otherwise I don't buy it for the majority of ex-vegans. JMO anyway.

[MollyGoat]

Really soy and wheat allergies should be no problem for a vegan. I'm wheat-sensitive and I would still be vegan if I developed an allergy to soy. I'd miss it, but so much of my diet is other legumes, veggies, fruits, nuts and grains--it wouldn't be too much of a problem.

Personally I think everyone should supplement with vitamin D and B12, not just veg*ns. Deficiencies of these vitamins are really common in omnis and veggies alike, oftentimes regardless of excellent diet. Living supplement-free is certainly a personal choice, but I don't think that the need for a couple of supplements is indicative of a sub-optimal diet.

Certainly there are people in the world who do not and cannot thrive as veg*ns. I believe these people are very few and far between, however, as the most nutrient-dense foods in existence are all vegan foods. I think most people thrive on a diet composed primarily, or even solely, of these foods (barring relatively rare conditions, such as poor omega-3 to DHA conversion. Though there are microalgae DHA supplements now.)

[zoebird]

MG:

i agree that wheat and soy allergies usually shouldn't keep someone from being vegan--as these two products are relatively easy to avoid and there are other things to consume. Larger considereations would be more grain allergies (more than just wheat, for instance) and more alergies toward legumes (more than one type of bean causes problems).

i think that everyone would do better to have more organic fruits and veggies in their diets. I think that should be the bottom of the pyramid. Then, you should have two bricks on the next level--grains and legumes, then two more smaller bricks--dairy/eggs and meats, and finally a pin point of junk foods because--face it--we're all going to eat something junky some time (unless you're a sugar addict or something, like my sister, who no longer consumes sugar). But, you can also look at that top triangle (eggs/dairy and meat and junk foods), and say "hey, i don't need any of those" and be sure to supplement for all else. But, when/if supplementation doesn't work, adding in more foods is a pretty good idea.

i think that i consider most of the oils that i use to come from either the legumes (which i guess should include nuts and seeds) or the fruits/veggies section (olive oil, coconut oil, etc).

wolfie:

i think any kind of junk food diet is unhealthy. but, i'll also point out that many americans have cholesterol problems--both high and low--and the inclusion of products containing cholesterol seems to lead to longer, healthier lives than the exclusion of these products as a method of treatment for cholesterol problem. there are independent UK and Australian studies linked from WAP to show this--which i found interesting. My condition is rather rare when it comes to cholesterol conditions--about 1/4 of cholesterol conditions (high and low) are low cholesterol. so, high gets more press and is more of a concern.

[Apple]

hmm...this is an interesting thread. What about nutritional yeast? That's not very processed though I know that the B12 in it is an "added" nutrient.

I think that EVERYONE now seems to have a deficiency in their diet, but I don't believe this is always due to dietary choices. I think it has to due with the increase in pollution/toxins that we are exposed to on a daily basis and the decrease of natural nutrients in the soil that grows our food.

I think the best thing to do to ensure you aren't defficient is to not smoke, reduce indoor pollution exposure, get plenty of sleep, and reduce your stress. I think your lifestyle and environment have more to do with it than your diet, though of course you need to eat healthy to be healthy. And a vegan diet in my opinion is the most healthy and natural, nobody needs to consume a mother cow's breastmilk except her calf!