What about abortion?

[sandiemac]

I never realised so many people are anti-abortion. Most of my friends/family tend to be quietly pro-choice.

I don't think there are many people who would argue abortion as a form of birth control is ok. I know I certainly wouldn't. But there are a LOT of situations where regardless of birth control it is possible to get pregnant. Condoms *can* and do break, birth control pills *can* fail - or something unexpected happens and a woman finds herself pregnant.

I am 100% pro choice, and feel offended by people who make harsh sweeping judgements against women who have had abortions.

:up: yea! what she said!

[rainbowmoon]

The way I view abortion is that it is basically an issue of perspective on the origin and nature of life. Some people feel that life begins at conception, while others must believe that life begins at birth and that before that time, the fetus is a part of the mother. So, just as I can opt to cut my finger off, I can have an abortion.
I happen to believe that life begins at conception and that the fetus has a soul, and that is why I would never have an abortion. Sex is for reproduction as well as for pleasure; but mainly, its purpose is reproduction. It is our responsibility- MY responsibility- to protect myself from pregnancy, even if that means not having sex, because sex is intended to make babies. And if I do get pregnant, I don't feel that it is acceptable to just kill my baby, because I am not ready to have one.
However, I do not support making abortion illegal. I will always stand by the view that until babies are no longer left in dumpsters, abortion should probably be legal. If you think about it for a second, what I've just said is a sad commentary on our society. I don't judge anyone who has had an abortion, because I am not here to judge- but I do have the option to make my own decisions/conclusions based on my individual morality and to discuss that when I feel it is pertinent.

[rainbowmoon]

Also Descentia, and I think I mentioned this before, I would be curious to see the actual statistics of how many women who have an abortion REALLY are doing so because of failed protection, particuarly when they were on the pill, or using an IUD. Chances are the times that condoms failed, they were being used improperly.

[clickman]

For me, it depends on the scenario.

If it's going to cause harm to the mother to have the kid, i.e. situations where giving birth would kill the mother? I can see abortion then. If you're getting an abortion just because it's "not convienent" for you at the time? No, I'm not supporting that. Doesn't mean if I don't support it I want it illegal, though. Those who do do it for the latter reason will pay the price later, however.

[Balabean]

I was pro life for many years, and I really understand that point of view. But in this day and age, I believe that it would be better in most cases to terminate an unwanted pregnancy than to have an unplanned baby due to the fact that we REALLY DO NOT NEED ANY MORE PEOPLE. Our gi-normous population is what is running this world into the ground. Example: A few years ago India hit the 1 BILLION mark in human population. This is a country only slightly larger than Texas. Where is there room left for the Bengal tiger and other native species? It may not sound nice, but to me population control is a major concern with regards to the future of all life on the planet earth.

[epski]

Not to be flip or cavalier about it, but I agree with Balabean. We should take every opportunity to reduce unwanted population, so long as it remains a choice, and so long as the terminated pregnancy occurs as early on as possible in the first trimester... the first month, if possible.

We're blindly plunging into an abyss of overpopulation. Having already dominated most of the "livable" parts of the world, taking over land from native creatures (habitate encroachment if not outright slaughter, as in the case of the buffalo), we've already passed the point of no return in some respects, and it's only going to get worse. One only has to look at the hostility in traffic in many cities to see how hazardous it can be to pack humans into a finite space. Once we're done encroaching on and killing off native creatures, we'll start encroaching on each other.

Environmental devastation will increase as the population increases (more consumption and waste), and that will add more fuel to the fire. No matter how you look at this situation, eventually it gets ugly unless we cut back not just on consumption and waste, but on the sheer number of people crowding this once serene planet.

Um... *steps off soapbox*

[lollypop]

i am pro life,but............

joseph fletcher developed an ethical theory by which all dilemas can be solved or viewed through............situation ethics. not every one has heard of jesus not every one understands utilitarian, but everyone understands love in one way or another.

he did not believe that there should be loads of rules when it comes to making ethical desions, he believe in one rule---------love, when it comes to making a descion you must decide what the most loving thing is for that person in that situation.

while for one person an abortion may be the most loving thing to do, in another circumstance the most loving thing to do may be not to allow that woman to have an abortion.

i love this theory because it understands that each situation is different.

this is how i view abortions

[Iameverywhere]

Balabeen, India appears to be at least 3 times as large as Texas.

I agree that population control is probably THE most important issue of our times. However I think there must be a better way to control it than by killing fetuses. Killing fetuses, is, also, more resource-consuming than conception control. Though of course killing babies, and then adults, in that order, consume even more.

It shouldn't be that awfully hard to implement a birth control plan. I hope the young people here are mature enough to understand this without having a giggle-fest: I believe part of the problem is "male egos" where males need their egos massaged by "scoring" vaginal sex, even though we all know that various kinds of mutual masturbation can be just as enjoyable and satisfying. We have to change cultural attitudes about what is a "good score."

lollypop while I agree with the theory you tell us about, it is not going to make all decisions easier. For some decisions, we will have the burden of arbitray regulation removed. For others, we will have to spend larger amounts ot time thinking things through very thoroughly, again and again, instead of being able to rely on a shortcut (and probably inadequate) set of rules.

[Balabean]

You're right about the India thing Iameverywhere, I just looked it up and India is about one third the size of the US. Oops. Objects on map are larger than they appear. :shy:

And I agree that abortion is never a good choice. Ideally we should not get pregnant unless we are ready to raise a child. Ideally we should all be using protection every time we have sex, and abstaining when we don't have protection available.

Unfortunately, we do not live in an ideal world. Self control is not one of our strong points, nor is our ability to think rationally when we are "in love." :smitten:

Keep in mind that in most cases the children we have do not become wonderful saints that benefit the world and it's inhabitants. They become meat guzzling, environment trashing consumers despite our best efforts. I know so many children who were raised vegan or vegetarian who "rebel" against their parents by becoming omnis. And even the most environmentally friendly person isn't improving the environment, they just aren't being as bad as others.

Babies are wonderful and beautiful and loving, but they are also termites eating away at the foundations of our existence and the existence of every plant and animal species on this planet.

And remember the movie Soilent Green? :spew: We don't want that to happen.

[Rebel Girl]

Descentia said it right for me. I am pro choice, and it freaks me out when people shout at me randomly around because i have prochoice buttons or i come out of a building next to a planned parenthood. BABY KILLER! MURDERER! and alot of other un-nice things.
and if a woman really wants to have an abortion, maybe the child wouldnt be born into such a good place anyway. its her body, and like it or not, its alot more her responsibility, those cells are, than the goverments.

i do not ever want to hear about another girl killing herself with an icepick abortion or a clothes hanger abortion.

i would much rather have it that there are more abortions instead of accidental deaths on both sides, baby and mom. and sometimes, moms can lose daughters and grandaughters like this, icepick abortions and such.
and ideally, there would be no unwanted babies. lots of babies that are born instead of abortions end up orphans or treated really badly. and really, if a woman doesnt want some zygotes to become a fetus to become a baby, then that should be her deal. its not like we need more orphans. even my friends' super republican mom is pro choice, because she doesnt want more orphans and needy moms sucking up her tax money.

simply put, im pro choice.

[Tame]

I can't for the life of me figure out why those so incredibly concerned with population control don't start with themselves, rather than wanting to dictate whether others should live or die.

[kristadb]

The way I view abortion is that it is basically an issue of perspective on the origin and nature of life. Some people feel that life begins at conception, while others must believe that life begins at birth and that before that time, the fetus is a part of the mother. So, just as I can opt to cut my finger off, I can have an abortion.
I happen to believe that life begins at conception and that the fetus has a soul, and that is why I would never have an abortion. Sex is for reproduction as well as for pleasure; but mainly, its purpose is reproduction. It is our responsibility- MY responsibility- to protect myself from pregnancy, even if that means not having sex, because sex is intended to make babies. And if I do get pregnant, I don't feel that it is acceptable to just kill my baby, because I am not ready to have one.
However, I do not support making abortion illegal. I will always stand by the view that until babies are no longer left in dumpsters, abortion should probably be legal. If you think about it for a second, what I've just said is a sad commentary on our society. I don't judge anyone who has had an abortion, because I am not here to judge- but I do have the option to make my own decisions/conclusions based on my individual morality and to discuss that when I feel it is pertinent.

She summed it up for me, so I don't have to bother posting.

Tame - great comment about population control.

[Astarte]

Though I don't know whether I'd ever get an abortion (luckily, I'm on the pill and always *always* use condoms) were I ever put in that the situation, I can say for certain that I would fight tooth and nail if the gov't ever tried to outlaw it. As soon as they start telling us what we can and can't do with our bodies, they've gone too far.

Apart from that, if safe abortions performed by a doctor became outlawed, people would start doing it themselves in very dangerous ways. It happens in poorer nations and I see no reason that it wouldn't happen in North America too.

[lollypop]

i guess nothing is ever has simple as it sounds, for me i am pro life for myself and pro life for everyone else- but i think its sad people feel they need to have abortions although i fully except that it happens i would never make it illegal but i hope through education, information et.c. the need for abortions is diminished, i personally dont agree with abortions but i can understand WHY people have them.

i know as a woman it is the womans responsibility and her body her child but knowing a single father i know those children have just as much love from their father than the mother who left them and never wanted them. the children (twins, actually my age) have brought happiness to so many peole so really are lovely girls, i am glad their father persuaded their mother to keep them she left after the birth, and he raised perfectly balanced ladies.

so i dont know how to feel about it just being the mothers choice, it may be her body but its the fathers collection of cells/baby, he may not carry the child to term but if he is willing to raise the children i think it should be considred at least.

i really dont know how to feel exactly about this as i have never been in this situation and i hope i never am.

[rainbowmoon]

epski & Balabean- Beacause I believe life begins at conception, the idea of abortion to control population is similar, in my eyes, to killing the mentally ill, imprisoned, or homeless/poverty stricken. Just because a fetus cannot talk or walk or breath does not negate its right to life, in my opinion. I believe making abortions more available and accepted is not the proper way to control population; to me a more proper measure would be to make birth control more available in addition to making more people aware of their other choices. I also strongly advocate adoption for this reason- although many do feel a strong biological urge to procreate (which is natural and healthy) I believe adoption is an excellent way to keep population in control, if only more people took advantage of it.

[clickman]

You know what, we do need to get the population to a reasonable number. So, I have a solution.

Kill every infidel Christian. All ~2 billion of them. That'd solve the population problem.

Disclaimer: The above is satire meant to illuminate the arguments of some.

[kristadb]

You have it wrong. Infidels are non-Muslims (which is more then just Christians); heathens are non-Christians.

:D

[Iameverywhere]

Apart from that, if safe abortions performed by a doctor became outlawed, people would start doing it themselves in very dangerous ways. It happens in poorer nations and I see no reason that it wouldn't happen in North America too.

I don't know. You think so? I'm skeptical. It would be hard to find out, because, if it were illegal, illegal abortionists wouldn't exactly be eager to fill out questionairrs about how many abortions they preformed, or even admit to performing any, and it would be hard to do followups or watchovers, to see how good or bad a job they do. So it would be hard to determine exactly how many there really were, and how well or poorly they were performed. My feeling is that there would be a number of abortionists doing a number of fairly "safe" abortions, despite the illegality.

This does not mean I am in favor of making abortions illegal.

[NDvegan85]

I don't know. You think so? I'm skeptical. It would be hard to find out, because, if it were illegal, illegal abortionists wouldn't exactly be eager to fill out questionairrs about how many abortions they preformed, or even admit to performing any, and it would be hard to do followups or watchovers, to see how good or bad a job they do. So it would be hard to determine exactly how many there really were, and how well or poorly they were performed. My feeling is that there would be a number of abortionists doing a number of fairly "safe" abortions, despite the illegality.

Eh, I think that if abortions were illegal, yet some doctors would still be willing to do them, they would probably charge a high price since they would be putting themselves at risk in order to do it. They would need a compelling reason to do so.

A lot of poorer people wouldn't be able to afford them, and definitely couldn't afford the kids either. So what's the alternative? Something not very safe I think.

[Iameverywhere]

"So what's the alternative?" One alternative would be dissemination of knowledge re how to perform an abortion, and women reading how, and performing them on themselves, in secret. Both what symtoms to fake so that you canget a morning-after pill be prescribed for something else, and then use it to cause an abortion, and also how to perform a dilation and curretage oneself or similar mechanical method of causing an abortion. I don't think that appropriate, safe tools would extremely difficult to make. I don't think women would not have to rely on the legendary "coathanger."

Performing an abortion safely is not something that would take years of training and practice to do, like playing the piano would be. If women can learn to play the piano well with a year or 2 of practice, they can learn to perform safe abortion with a few days or weeks of practice.

[Balabean]

"So what's the alternative?" One alternative would be dissemination of knowledge re how to perform an abortion, and women reading how, and performing them on themselves, in secret. Both what symtoms to fake so that you canget a morning-after pill be prescribed for something else, and then use it to cause an abortion, and also how to perform a dilation and curretage oneself or similar mechanical method of causing an abortion. I don't think that appropriate, safe tools would extremely difficult to make. I don't think women would not have to rely on the legendary "coathanger."

Performing an abortion safely is not something that would take years of training and practice to do, like playing the piano would be. If women can learn to play the piano well with a year or 2 of practice, they can learn to perform safe abortion with a few days or weeks of practice.

I'm sorry, but I seriously doubt that a person can learn how to safely perform an abortion on herself in a few days. Dilitation and curettage is painful and requires a shot to numb the pain delivered directly into the cervix..then you dialate the cervix with a rod, stick the curette, which is a sharp instrunment, through the cervical opening and into the womb...Then you scrape things about in there being careful not to perforate the delicate walls of the womb...Then you remove the curette and stick a suction thingy up there to take everything out. Then you are in pain and bleeding for about 2 weeks after the procedure. It is an invasive procedure that could go seriously wrong, and I wouldn't trust myself to do it to myself or anyone else. Maybe I am less McGyver than most but I doubt it.

[Rebel Girl]

whoa. no way is any woman going to have the bravery or proper knowledge or view point to perform an abortion. its not like you could really see what you were doing, could you? and performing it in secret is just like its something to be ashamed of, leading to feelings that could lead to something worse, like depression or something.

[kristadb]

Just give Soilman a book. He'll figure it out as he goes along :)

[shagginabit]

:lol:

[Balabean]

I'm not letting anyone near my "sensitive areas" with a sharp, pointy object without a license! :no: