UK Police compile activist database

[Hotchilidog]

Not sure if this should be in the News Section as it is a news story, but not exclusively about animals so I thought I'd post it in the activist forum. Mods feel free to move if neccessary.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/25/police-domestic-extremists-database

I'm sure this isn't really news to people who attend demos and are regularly filmed by the FIT photographers, but it is a pretty damning endictment of how authoritarian the UK is becoming.

Also interesting to note at ARA's were the first to be mentioned on the list. Some interesting comments on the article detail how this sort of monitoring is not tolerated in other countries such as Germany.

I'm looking forward to another photo shoot at Novartis in Horsham on saturday.

[Sevenseas]

Your tax dollars at work.

[MrFalafel]

We all expect our law enforcement officials to use the latest technology and skills in order to protect us. This is just another advance in policing skills just as fingerprinting or photography (mugshots) were introduced in the past.

We need to remember that his information is also being gathered on violent racist groups like the EDL. In the past, violent racists have networked to build and plant bombs in public areas in London. If we had this database then there's a good chance that bomber would have been stopped much sooner.

99.99% of activists are above board and do not commit crimes. Does it really matter if you go to half a dozen AR rallies and the police have a record of it?

I remember doing some anti war activism 20 years ago and our legit, peaceful group was infiltrated by anarchists who were bent on 'hiding' in our group while causing damage to private property as part of their agenda. We had no way of telling them apart from our peaceful members. Frankly, it would have been great to be able to approach the police for information on certain members in order to exclude them from our ranks if they were indeed a violent or similar.

[unovegan]

99.99% of activists are above board and do not commit crimes. Does it really matter if you go to half a dozen AR rallies and the police have a record of it?



I think that's wishful thinking. I used to do Food Not Bombs and at that point it was hotly contested as it served vegan food to hungry folk. They would take our pictures and tell us it would be used to accrue longer jail sentences. Nothing came of it, but i think our phone was tapped and cops would follow us before and after serving.

If AR starts to get a rep as more terrorist based and perceived, then those records could absolutely be used inappropriately. I used to work in law enforcement and i'll be the 1st to admit that there are people out there that will do such underhanded things without a 2nd thought if they look down on the AR movement.

[MrFalafel]

I think that's wishful thinking. I used to do Food Not Bombs and at that point it was hotly contested as it served vegan food to hungry folk. They would take our pictures and tell us it would be used to accrue longer jail sentences. Nothing came of it, but i think our phone was tapped and cops would follow us before and after serving.

If AR starts to get a rep as more terrorist based and perceived, then those records could absolutely be used inappropriately. I used to work in law enforcement and i'll be the 1st to admit that there are people out there that will do such underhanded things without a 2nd thought if they look down on the AR movement.

The AR movement in the UK is already percieved as SHAC/ALF bombers. There's been very very serious illegal activity by a fringe minority of violence orientated AR members. Some argue that legtimate AR groups are marginalized because of this ultra extremists. One could argue that if the police could shut down the ultra extremists, it would allow the more moderate direct action groups more mainstream acceptance.

[unovegan]

The AR movement in the UK is already percieved as SHAC/ALF bombers. There's been very very serious illegal activity by a fringe minority of violence orientated AR members. Some argue that legtimate AR groups are marginalized because of this ultra extremists. One could argue that if the police could shut down the ultra extremists, it would allow the more moderate direct action groups more mainstream acceptance.

Hopefully law enforcement there has the ability and urge to differentiate the different AR groups. If not, it could be a long road for people.

[MrFalafel]

Hopefully law enforcement there has the ability and urge to differentiate the different AR groups. If not, it could be a long road for people.

Its a two way street; we want the crazed Nazis watched and reported on, don't we? If so, then we also have to realise that serious activists from all groups will be monitored as well. I really can't see how even professional activists will be seriously hampered by this database. In fact, I can see how it could be used to defend an activist who normally takes part in legal protest but is wrongly accused of taking part in illegal activities.

[Lentil Burger]

We all expect our law enforcement officials to use the latest technology and skills in order to protect us.I don't.


This is just another advance in policing skills just as fingerprinting or photography (mugshots) were introduced in the past.Same as miniature cameras in our homes, huh?


We need to remember that his information is also being gathered on violent racist groups like the EDL. In the past, violent racists have networked to build and plant bombs in public areas in London. If we had this database then there's a good chance that bomber would have been stopped much sooner. Which would be fine, if they were restricting themselves to compiling information on violent extremists.


99.99% of activists are above board and do not commit crimes. Does it really matter if you go to half a dozen AR rallies and the police have a record of it?Yes. Did you not read the bit about the guy who kept getting pulled over by the cops just because he'd made it onto that list after attending a demo?

[Hotchilidog]

Its a two way street; we want the crazed Nazis watched and reported on, don't we? If so, then we also have to realise that serious activists from all groups will be monitored as well. I really can't see how even professional activists will be seriously hampered by this database. In fact, I can see how it could be used to defend an activist who normally takes part in legal protest but is wrongly accused of taking part in illegal activities.

For me it's the principle involved. I am perfectly entitled to lawfully exercise my right to protest without being treated like a criminal.

I agree that there are people who will need to be kept tabs on, but that sort of intelligence requires a different type of targeted investigation. In my view part of the thinking behind these tactics is to try and put people off demonstrating.

[unovegan]

Its a two way street; we want the crazed Nazis watched and reported on, don't we? If so, then we also have to realise that serious activists from all groups will be monitored as well. I really can't see how even professional activists will be seriously hampered by this database. In fact, I can see how it could be used to defend an activist who normally takes part in legal protest but is wrongly accused of taking part in illegal activities.

i understand your point. I'm just hoping you're not being naive about this. Hopefully distinctions can and will be made by law enforcement. Idk. That's like hoping no law enforcement monitor this site.

[amaroque]

We all expect our law enforcement officials to use the latest technology and skills in order to protect us.

I feel that lately too much "big brothering" has been going on in the name of law enforcement. And while I'm on my soapbox, let's stop calling it law enforcement when its really punishment. A security camera doesn't enforce anything. Its just a tool to catch somebody so they can be punished.

[MrFalafel]

I don't.

Same as miniature cameras in our homes, huh?

Which would be fine, if they were restricting themselves to compiling information on violent extremists.

Yes. Did you not read the bit about the guy who kept getting pulled over by the cops just because he'd made it onto that list after attending a demo?

Police make mistakes just like any other human on the planet. The good part is police will admit their mistakes and make them right when they are pointed out.

Sadly, some violent extremists start out as peaceful protestors. The police need to protect teh public do they not? Should someone be arrested because they pose a very real and very dangerous threat or should we wait until they carry out an attack before is his arrested?

Case in point: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2502787.stm

[MrFalafel]

For me it's the principle involved. I am perfectly entitled to lawfully exercise my right to protest without being treated like a criminal.

I agree that there are people who will need to be kept tabs on, but that sort of intelligence requires a different type of targeted investigation. In my view part of the thinking behind these tactics is to try and put people off demonstrating.

I don't see how your right to protest is being infringed. I don't see how keeping tabs of who was at a protest is treating you like a criminal. When you go shopping at your local Tescos or ride a train you are photographed. Are Tescos and National Rail treating you like criminals?

Gathering information into a database is very different from digesting that information and actiong on it. Are you against the police being able to gather information that could be used to protect us?

[Kellye]

Yay Big Brother?

Honestly, I hate this sort of ****. With the fiery passion of a thousand angry suns.

[MrFalafel]

i understand your point. I'm just hoping you're not being naive about this. Hopefully distinctions can and will be made by law enforcement. Idk. That's like hoping no law enforcement monitor this site.

When I was doing ALF/EF! work way back when, the FBI and other groups tapped my friends phones, photographed us, left threatening messages etc etc. But here in the UK they are at least being up front about the existance of a database. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if solicitor defending wrongly accused activists using that database evidence to get charges against their clients dropped. Information can be used many different ways. People need to stop being so paranoid.

[MrFalafel]

I feel that lately too much "big brothering" has been going on in the name of law enforcement. And while I'm on my soapbox, let's stop calling it law enforcement when its really punishment. A security camera doesn't enforce anything. Its just a tool to catch somebody so they can be punished.

Security cameras caught this bomber: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Copeland and kept him from bombing again. Its also caught child abducters, rapists, murderers and much much more. Many many criminals would now be walking free if it wasn't for this technology.

[MrFalafel]

Yay Big Brother?

Honestly, I hate this sort of ****. With the fiery passion of a thousand angry suns.

Would you rather just not know about how you are being monitored? Because you are being monitored. In the UK, we at least know about it and how its done.

[unovegan]

Security cameras caught this bomber: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Copeland and kept him from bombing again. Its also caught child abducters, rapists, murderers and much much more. Many many criminals would now be walking free if it wasn't for this technology.

There is a very fine line there. the police need to do their job to stop violent individuals and we have to hope they are picking just those individuals. and this is an excellent reason why we need all the different types of people fighting for animals. The hardliners to the anti fur people. The more diversity the less the extremist mindset can get entrenched in the public eye.

[MrFalafel]

There is a very fine line there. the police need to do their job to stop violent individuals and we have to hope they are picking just those individuals. and this is an excellent reason why we need all the different types of people fighting for animals. The hardliners to the anti fur people. The more diversity the less the extremist mindset can get entrenched in the public eye.

Yeah, and thats what I was trying to say earlier. How many protests have been disrupted by radicals doing something crazy that the bulk of the protestors didn't want to be a part of? Perhaps this kind of element being rooted out or isolated will actually help legitmize mainstream peaceful activism once more.

[das_nut]

This is going to make it a lot easier for police to link you to someone who participates in violent protest.

"link" being defined as going to the same protest rally.

With many violent protesters in the database, and many rallys and other events, it will probably be easy to link you to someone who frequents mostly the same rallys as you do.

[MrFalafel]

This is going to make it a lot easier for police to link you to someone who participates in violent protest.

"link" being defined as going to the same protest rally.

With many violent protesters in the database, and many rallys and other events, it will probably be easy to link you to someone who frequents mostly the same rallys as you do.

Its not illegal to participate in a peaceful protest. Its not illegal to participate in many peaceful protests.

The reality is, there are only a very very few violent protestors. They are spoiling it for the peaceful protesters. This database will prove that only a small fraction of protestors are indeed violent or a threat. This will remove guilt by association notions with actual facts. The violent ones can then be isolated from the peaceful ones. Everybody wins.

[das_nut]

Its not illegal to participate in a peaceful protest. Its not illegal to participate in many peaceful protests.

The reality is, there are only a very very few violent protestors. They are spoiling it for the peaceful protesters. This database will prove that only a small fraction of protestors are indeed violent or a threat. This will remove guilt by association notions with actual facts. The violent ones can then be isolated from the peaceful ones. Everybody wins.

I don't know where I'd get the idea that the police would consider someone guilty based on who they have associated with (http://www.democracynow.org/2009/2/18/rnc_8).

People are usually poor at interpretating data, especially when probability is involved. More data is not necessarily better.

Your "peaceful protestor" may be the police's "criminal mastermind" or "go between guy".

[Kellye]

Would you rather just not know about how you are being monitored? Because you are being monitored. In the UK, we at least know about it and how its done.

I would rather not be monitored at all. Here is an example of the UK's rationale for treating all citizens like criminals before they've even had the chance to commit a crime:

How Police Branded Lawful Protest As Domestic Extremism (UK): http://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/how-police-rebranded-lawful-protest-as-domestic-extremism/

Quote:
“Just because you have no criminal record does not mean that you are not of interest to the police,” he said. “Everyone who has got a criminal record did not have one once.”

Thoughtcrime anyone?

[das_nut]

Kellye, I don't like your attitude, and you've been seen at three demonstrations recently.

Please report to an reeducation program pronto!

[Dark Lord]

what this teaches you is if you stand up for your views you will be treated as a criminal. Therefor, its best we all stay at home and trust our government to commit atrosoties on our behalf...

Does this seem wrong to anyone?