new to board have a question

[theresaann]

about the distinctions of vegetarian and vegan on this forum....in my understanding, vegan means avoiding the use of all animal products, either as food or non-food items, but TYPICALLY, vegetarian means still using dairy products? What is the position of this forum on this topic?

I've been vegan, cooked and raw, "vegetarian," off and on for over 25 years, have macrobiotic training and raw food chef certification, etc, but what I've found, albeit with a certain sense of regret, is that healthwise, I just do the best following an "Eat to Live" protocol as outlined by Dr. Joel Furhman, and adding a few eggs/week and fish maybe once a month. Dairy is not included in my diet.

so....I've been having a hard time finding a "home" in the plant based community. I LOVE the vegan boards, but feel as though I am no longer "allowed." Having had SO many years of experience and training in plant based nutrition, it took me a LONG time to find what works the very best for me and then had to work through the challenging of accepting that it went against my vegan leanings...but health must come first or I am not very useful in the world.

For anyone interested, what happens to me when I am only plant based is that my insulin levels get weird and after a few weeks I start CRAVING sugar, I get fatigued, candida overgrowth and bodyfat creeps up, even IF I'm eating "healthy" stuff. When I add this bit of animal protein, that all evens out, my bodyfat goes down and my body responds better to exercise.

Dr. Fuhrman acknowledges that he just does not know if excluding ALL animal protein from the diet is healthier than eating a small amount. The China study says less than 10% of diet ok and Dr. Fuhrman says less than 12 ounces/week-I eat WAY less than that.

Trust me, I've been a flag waving, animal loving vegan for a looonnng time and it took a LOT for me to accept that my body just needs that occasional organic, free range egg and wild caught fish a few times/year.

My fiance and I are looking into getting laying hens and no rooster, to avoid the dread of having to "sell" boy chicks, etc.

thanks for reading! blessings~

[Sevenseas]

about the distinctions of vegetarian and vegan on this forum....in my understanding, vegan means avoiding the use of all animal products, either as food or non-food items, but TYPICALLY, vegetarian means still using dairy products? What is the position of this forum on this topic?If someone says 'vegetarian' without qualification, I think of lacto-ovo-vegetarian.

I think the position of this forum on this topic is that eating fish flesh once in a while is neither vegan nor vegetarian.

[Earthling]

If someone on the board talks about a vegetarian it will typically mean a lacto-ovo vegetarian.

Here on VB the rules state that you must be vegetarian or working to becoming a vegetarian to post here. People who eat fish are not vegetarian, and to be a member here you would have to be actively aiming to cut fish from your diet.

[Joe]

Remember when you studied Venn diagrams in math class?

Vegetarians are a big circle, like a quarter. Vegans are a smaller circle, like a dime.
Place the dime on top of the quarter so that all of the smaller circle is entirely within the larger circle. That is the relationship of vegetarians and vegans. All vegans are vegetarians but not all vegetarians are vegans.

The term "lacto-ovo vegetarian" is sometimes used to describe vegetarians who are not vegans. Were it not for the fish issue, you would be an ovo vegetarian.

The IVU states: "vegetarianism includes veganism and is defined as the practice of not eating meat, poultry or fish or their by-products, with or without the use of dairy products or eggs."

Since you eat fish, you are not a vegetarian.

I am not a moderator on this Board, but it is my understanding that this Board is for the support of vegetarians and vegetarianism and/or for people seeking to become vegetarians.

[Joe]

Here's what the Board rules have to say:

http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=67256
-------------------------------------------



Please read all of the rules thoroughly. Failure to do so may result in your account being banned. If you have any questions please feel free to contact either myself or one of our moderators.

Rule #1

You must be a vegetarian or have a sincere interest in going vegetarian to register and/or post here. This is not just a vegetarian forum, this is a forum for vegetarians.

We obviously can't control what you eat but we can control what you tell us. If you are not currently vegetarian that needs to be your goal. That means no chicken and no fish. Discussion of eating meat, especially with no intention of giving it up, is not appropriate and will result in an immediate ban. Examples:

Not acceptable: "I am a vegetarian who still eats chicken/fish!"

Not ok because vegetarians do not eat chicken and/or fish. If you have no desire to give these things up then this site is not for you.

Acceptable: "I want to go vegetarian but I'm having trouble giving up chicken/fish, help!"

Ok because you're seeking help in going vegetarian.

[penny79]

I don't suppose you tried low fat high fruit raw as opposed to processed, gourmet high fat raw?

[jikin]

For anyone interested, what happens to me when I am only plant based is that my insulin levels get weird and after a few weeks I start CRAVING sugar, I get fatigued, candida overgrowth and bodyfat creeps up, even IF I'm eating "healthy" stuff. When I add this bit of animal protein, that all evens out, my bodyfat goes down and my body responds better to exercise.


Normally craving sweets means your body is lacking fuel. You say you were eating healthy stuff, but were you watching how much of what you were eating as well as what nutrients you were getting? Do you remember how many calories you were getting a day? Were you getting a decent amount of fat? It is very easy to skimp on calories and fats on a veg diet while eating large meals and feeling stuffed.
If you are "curing" your lack of energy with fish, then you are missing something from your diet, and it is not animal protein.

[theresaann]

right, I see. Lacto Ovo is the general "aceepted" definition of what still constitutes a "vegetarian" diet.

I understand Dr. Fuhrman, nutrition hero to many vegans and vegetarians alike, still eats fish and even chicken on rare occasions himself. Hmm....doubt he'd be "banned" from the veg board or any other. But thats the way it goes...

I've been raw and cooked vegan and have many certifications to PROVE it..lol, as if that matters. and yes, I HAVE tried high fruit, low fat raw...I think that can work if you have the time and budget to eat TONS of fruit daily to meet calorie requirements and live in a tropical area during winter. But not everyone can thrive on that diet and many do become depleted.

thanks all for the distinctions!

[Brandon]

I understand Dr. Fuhrman, nutrition hero to many vegans and vegetarians alike, still eats fish and even chicken on rare occasions himself. Hmm....doubt he'd be "banned" from the veg board or any other. But thats the way it goes...



Honestly, if he signed up here, read and agreed to our rules and terms of service (which state meat-eating is a no-no) and then posted on the board about eating fish/pig/cow/goat/chicken/dog/monkey/otter/horse/whatever, he would be banned. It's pretty cut and dried. The rules apply equally to any member who joins, whether it's Jim Bob from Kentucky or The Queen of England.

Just sayin'. :)

[chunky chicken]

so i guess these people are saying is now that you have got yer answer to what a veg*n is you are no longer welcome and need to go find another forum to join.
or you could just not state in any other post about your fish consumption and then you could stay.

[LiveVegan]

so i guess these people are saying is now that you have got yer answer to what a veg*n is you are no longer welcome and need to go find another forum to join.
or you could just not state in any other post about your fish consumption and then you could stay.

Or the best option is to cut out the fish from your diet? :) Just saying.

[Joe]

so i guess these people are saying is now that you have got yer answer to what a veg*n is you are no longer welcome and need to go find another forum to join.
or you could just not state in any other post about your fish consumption and then you could stay.

I don't think anyone actually said that. If they actually said that, you would not have to "guess."

I very clearly stated that I was not a moderator here. It is the job of the mods to tell the OP whether she is not welcome here, if that is appropriate.

[AwardTour]

I'm very important and highly respected around here, and I'm cool with you staying. Welcome!

[Joe]

thanks all for the distinctions!

One more. There has been a controversy for some time about what to call someone who eats fish but otherwise follows a vegetarian diet. The term that has emerged and recently found its way into dictionaries is pescetarian


There is a new word running around that was only added to Merriam-Webster Dictionary in July of last year according to Stephanie Reitz, in “Merriam-Webster unveils new dictionary words”. You may have even heard it this morning on the Today Show. Pescetarian What is it?

According to Answers.com, “Pescetarianism is a dietary choice in which a person, known as a pescetarian, eats any combination of vegetables, fruit, nuts, beans and fish or invertebrate seafood, but will not eat mammals or birds. Some animal products like eggs and dairy may or may not be part of a pescetarian diet plan.”

http://www.fredericknewspost.com/sections/blogs/categories.htm?catid=1341&bid=46

If you Google the term pescetarian, you might find other forums more in sync with your current dietary choices.

[Licence]

I disagree with the OP's statement that the China Study says you can eat up to 10% dairy. It recommends a completely plant based, whole foods diet.

[silva]

When I stopped eating meat and dairy, I stopped craving sweets. I had crazy sugar craving before, but after a couple weeks of veggie, I just didn't think about it. Same with junk food, and overeating in general. I read that meat takes at least twice as long to digest than almost any other food. I never felt good when I was hungry when I ate meat. I didn't feel energized after eating. Now that I've been free for 3 months, I feel very even. I feel good after eating, and good when I'm hungry. I have fruit as my first meal, then something like hot whole grain cereal a few hours later.
Do you eat a good variety of foods? Grains, fruit, varied veggies, good fats? What is causing your insulin levels to react this way? How are you certain? Doesn't fruit help?

[TornadoChaser]

I still crave sweet things from time to time and sometimes I just don't want the fruit I happen to have. I like to keep a box of Clif bars around for things like that. It's not junk food but it really calms that sweet tooth.


I disagree with the OP's statement that the China Study says you can eat up to 10% dairy. It recommends a completely plant based, whole foods diet.

The China Study does say that it is the 10% animal protein mark is the line that once you cross cancer cells will start growing. I think that may have been what the OP was referring to and translating that into that eating up to 10% animal protein is okay.

[Clarita Osita]

You should do what feels healthiest and most morally acceptable for you. I doubt, though, that eating fish once a month is going to affect your health much. I'd be much more inclined to support you eating eggs. The only things you'd really be getting from the fish are protein and omega 3s, which are both easily accessible elsewhere. Once a month really isn't going to make a difference in your nutrient intake.

[Michael]

I understand Dr. Fuhrman, nutrition hero to many vegans and vegetarians alike, still eats fish and even chicken on rare occasions himself. Hmm....doubt he'd be "banned" from the veg board or any other. But thats the way it goes...

Actually he would be if he had no intention of giving up fish or chicken.

I'm going to close this thread. If you continue to discuss eating meat you will be banned. Rules are rules.