is a human death any more significant than an animal death?

[papayamon]

i ask this as last night i worked the er and they brought in a 20ish yo kid who threw a pulmonary embolism and was essentiallly dead when he hit the door. he looked like a strong young buck but he was definitely gone. lots of blood from his mouth (he was tubed), but otherwise he looked fine, just dead. they worked him but you could tell right off it was a lost battle.

a tall guy in his 40's, (i'm assuming his father( ran out of the er room and collapsed on the floor, screaming incoherently. i ended up basically picking him up and putting him in another bed. it was a chaotic scene.

some of the nurses had tears in their eyes,m a few were crying. me? it didn't affect me a bit. i've grown completely indifferent to death. i worked in a nursing home where probably i had close to 100 people die in my care (expected deaths). many of these were people i knew and had cared for for a couple of years. after watching them die i've come to see death as a natural part of the life cycle. sometimes it happens earlier, and sometimes it happens later. while i'm not ready to die myself, i'm not afraid of it.

when this happens i don't release any adrenoline unless there is actually something that can be done. ii don't even raise an eyebrow. no more emotion than if i dropped a loaf of bread. as a practical matter, if patient #1 dies, and you get wrapped up into it, you cannot properly care for patients #2 thru #5. my energy for emotional involvement has evaporated.

so as this all unfolds, i hear the music over the intercom that is played when a baby is born. one death, one life, within a few minutes of each other.

i see threads where an animal has died, be it a bird, cat, dog or mouse... and people are having a more emotional reaction reading about this online than i have when a human dies right in front of me. i wonder if it's really more significant when a human dies? one day it will be all of us.

discussion?

[stanie]

I think the thing with death, si that the people left behind are upset for selfish reasons, they are upset as THEY will not be able to see the dead person ever a again.
I try to not let death get to me too much unless its life that has been needlessly taken, but its hard to not get emotional when its someone close to you.
I dont see death as any great thing, to the person/animal that has died as they are no longer here, theres no point feeling sorry for them, theyre gone.
It bugs me how, despite what ive just said, i still have to fight when someone (human/animal) close to me dies. Its just me being selfish, im just not sure how to overcome that.
Sorry if i havent really responded to what youve posted!

[Semicharmed]

Significant on what level?

Most humans have a biological drive to promote survival of the species.

Unexpected, tragic, needless deaths of the stronger members (or, in the case of babies, members with undefined potential) of our groups is representative of biological failure for the species.

In that way, it could be judged as "more significant" than animal death.

Humans, because of their drive to promote survival of the species, have built-in desires to protect and nurture the helpless. Our offspring are annoying, whiny, smelly, vulnerable, useless blobs that cannot in any way to their communities for WAY longer than the offspring of other creatures. We HAVE to have the innate desire to protect the smaller, weaker, more helpless beings or else we'd die out because we'd just toss babies on the side of the road and get about our business. Those very strong desires to protect and nurture those helpless blobs often translate to animals as well.

In fact, I've heard it's why a lot of people think pandas are cuter than, say, a grizzly. Their markings mimic the pattern of "infant" (dark circles that look like BIG eyes, for example) more than another creature of similar size and shape, and therefore people like them better. They look like they need more protection.

Humans are amusing.

[dormouse]

Papayamon, you are describing your own personal experiences and feelings, which none of us can argue with. I don't even think it's a topic worth debating, really, because each of us will emotionally respond differently to death.

For me, animal death is very sad, but human death is more intense for me. I think humans are more important than other animals. I am sure that I only think this because I am a human.

[African_Prince]

i've grown completely indifferent to death. ii don't even raise an eyebrow. no more emotion than if i dropped a loaf of bread.

I find this disheartening. I will never become indifferent to death. I can't even imagine someone dying right in front of me, even if I disliked them it would be overwhelming for me. I know you will think this is because I am sheltered (I have had family members and close friends die but I wasn't with them when it happened) but even if I dealt with it regularly, I could never not care that someone has died. I could get used to it in the sense that it wouldn't depress me or even that I no longer find it morbid (and I find the idea of a human dying right in front of me very, very morbid and surreal) but I will always recognize it as a loss of an entire universe, since a person's consciousness is their entire universe, I'm not sure how to explain. One minute there are thoughts and feelings, a person, the next, there's nothing.

That said, I do not consider human death to be more significant than the death of non-human animals. I don't respond emotionally to the deaths of insects the way that I would to the death of a mammal (human or non-human) but intellectually I regard them as equally valuable.

[stanie]

Papayamon, you are describing your own personal experiences and feelings, which none of us can argue with. I don't even think it's a topic worth debating, really, because each of us will emotionally respond differently to death.

For me, animal death is very sad, but human death is more intense for me. I think humans are more important than other animals. I am sure that I only think this because I am a human.

No, because i am human and dont think humans are more important than animals.

[Savannah]

When one of our family pets passed away I was heartbroken; he was an old friend and I loved having him around and taking care of him. Yes grief is also for ourselves too because we miss the privilege of having that other being in our lives. I am also sure that if one of my human family members passes away I would take their death 'harder' than if one of the pets died because human interaction is on a different level because we are able to communicate more directly and we share common emotions that we know the other is feeling. It is certainly not that I discount the animal's death but I know I feel the human connection even more.

[Sevenseas]

What kind of significance?

-Moral significance? I don't believe that constructing some kind of a hierarchy of the moral worths of different individuals' (or their lives) makes much sense. I do not believe in ranking the moral significance of different deaths like they were baseball cards.
-Personal significance? For me, depends on the human or non-human in question, and my emotional ties to that individual.
-Significance in a larger sense, significance for nature or the world or the universe? Nature, the world or the universe are not some kind of entities that place value on anything. So that kind of "big picture significance" doesn't exist. Only sentient beings create values.

[TornadoChaser]

What kind of significance?

-Moral significance? I don't believe that constructing some kind of a hierarchy of the moral worths of different individuals' (or their lives) makes much sense. I do not believe in ranking the moral significance of different deaths like they were baseball cards.
-Personal significance? For me, depends on the human or non-human in question, and my emotional ties to that individual.
-Significance in a larger sense, significance for nature or the world or the universe? Nature, the world or the universe are not some kind of entities that place value on anything. So that kind of "big picture significance" doesn't exist. Only sentient beings create values.

:yes:

(And darn it Sevenseas, you changed your avatar and it confused me for a minute. Haha!)

[Sevenseas]

It confuses me too, sometimes I'm just about to quote a post and say "I agree 100%" and then I notice it's me.

[TornadoChaser]

it confuses me too, sometimes i'm just about to quote a post and say "i agree 100%" and then i notice it's me.

haha!

[LyricGaia]

Humans are cheap. We're losing animals.

[papayamon]

ss.. the clown avatar was cool! remember when they changed coca cola?

[dormouse]

No, because i am human and dont think humans are more important than animals.

I'm not really sure why you responded to my description of my own reaction toward death and said "no." You can't tell me that I'm wrong, because I wasn't arguing anything. I was expressing how I feel.

[stanie]

I'm not really sure why you responded to my description of my own reaction toward death and said "no." You can't tell me that I'm wrong, because I wasn't arguing anything. I was expressing how I feel.

What i said was in response to this;

"I am sure that I only think this because I am a human."

I was saying no, because i am human and dont think that, so its not JUST because youre human that you think that way :)

[dormouse]

What i said was in response to this;

"I am sure that I only think this because I am a human."

I was saying no, because i am human and dont think that, so its not JUST because youre human that you think that way :)

Well, I didn't say that all humans feel that way. Of course it's not just because I'm human. It's because I think the world revolves around me.

[stanie]

Well, I didn't say that all humans feel that way. Of course it's not just because I'm human. It's because I think the world revolves around me.

Ha Ha, ok.

[Envy]

Yes, humans would probably be more important to me than other animals.

[Vancityveggie]

Human death does affect me more than animal death. Animal death upsets me but not on the same level. I find it particularly upsetting when the death comes earlier than expected. I have been thinking about death a lot today as I found out this morning that an acquaintance of mine that I haven't seen in several years was murdered on Friday. He was 22. I do find that more upsetting than an animals death. I realize this reeks of specieism, however it is the way I feel. I just have more of a connection to other humans. This does not mean that I don't care about animal suffering nor am I attempting to minimize it. It's just how I feel.

[soilman]

This question only becomes relevant when there is a [fire, flood, earthquake, hurricane...] where both human and animal lives are threatened and we have to do triage.

[Wolfie]

The death of anyone close to me affects me more than the death of someone I didn't know. Species doesn't matter. Neither does age. I don't see the death of a baby or child as being worse than the death of an adult. People don't depreciate in value with age like a car or computer.

I can see why you'd have to be somewhat desensitized to work in an ER, or be a homicide detective or something. If you didn't, I don't think you'd last long in the job.

[Irizary]

I think humans are more important than other animals.

Whenever I see humans talking about how humans are just sooooo much more important than all the other animals, just by virtue of being human, to me those specific humans have just lowered their "status" as the superior beings they think they are quite a bit (and additionally their attitudes are doing great harm towards nonhumans, because humans who believe that way and speak out that way are generally acting it out and encouraging other humans to do so too). I don't like hubris and it makes me think a lot less of those people.

It's like when someone brags about how beautiful they are, it makes them less attractive. When you talk about how you're more important than all the other creatures on earth just because you're human - honestly I think the natural world would probably be better off without your presence.

Humans thinking they're more important than anyone else is what leads to vivisection and every other travesty against nonhumans.

[RedLotus]

I think one of the main differences, to me at least, between animal and human death is that humans have far more of an intellectual awareness of death (as far as we can tell). I don't think that my cat lies around thinking "wow, someday I'll die - this life is just temporary." I think on an instinctual level animals know when they're dying - but I think that while they're healthy they really don't have any concept of their own mortality. I don't think that this makes their lives less meaningful - I just think that, as beings with a complex understanding of our own mortality (and therefore the ability to understand that we and all our loved ones WILL die) death has a higher emotional impact on us.

I know that animals grieve as well - I'm not discounting that. I just think that they aren't as burdened with the foresight of their own mortality as we are.


I can see why you'd have to be somewhat desensitized to work in an ER, or be a homicide detective or something. If you didn't, I don't think you'd last long in the job.

There is a fine line between desensitized and burnt out, I think. I don't work in an ER or in homicide, but I do work in a very emotionally draining and intense field. I've with kids who have been raped, beaten, prostituted, kept in cages, witnessed their families murdered, horribly sexually abuse, etc. At first when I started in this field, I'd cry every time I read one of their files. Like you said, in order to keep going in that job I had to learn how to distance myself some from the emotion of it. But I see it more as a compartmentalization than a desensitization. These kids' lives still effect me and move me - but I've learned to let myself have that controlled reaction, then set it aside so I can do my job. But the day I stop feeling ANYTHING about their pain is the day I quit and find another line of work, for my sake and theirs. I can't imagine reacting to their pain (or the death of a person, and that person's loved ones' grief) like "dropping a loaf of bread."

[Irizary]

I think one of the main differences, to me at least, between animal and human death is that humans have far more of an intellectual awareness of death (as far as we can tell).

So do deaths of orphaned human babies whom no one really cares about fall into the same category as deaths of animals? I just put in the orphaned/no one cares about to hedge off the 'But what about the care workers' rationale. In fact plenty of nonhumans do grieve the loss of their companions.

[RedLotus]

So do deaths of orphaned human babies whom no one really cares about fall into the same category as deaths of animals? I just put in the orphaned/no one cares about to hedge off the 'But what about the care workers' rationale. In fact plenty of nonhumans do grieve the loss of their companion

Please note that nowhere did I say that I thought human death was worse than the death of an animal, and I DID say that animals grieve. I was simply stating that humans on an INTELLECTUAL level seem to devote a lot more thought and foresight to death than nonhumans (as far as we are able to tell) and that our anticipation and fear of death has an emotional impact on us. So yes, an infant dying would have no intellectual concept of its own mortality and it would be much like a nonhuman dying.