Here is something I've been puzzling over and never quite sorted out.
In our present cultural climate, where racism is looked down upon and even despised, how is it that racism continues to operate? Objective data on disparities in unemployment rates, income, school performance, acceptance rates for loans, etc. shows that racism is still widespread...but HOW?

ebola
np: cave-in

People still smoke, right? Not to draw too direct a link, for obvious reasons, but I believe that old habits die hard for a lot of people, and it will be at least another generation more before we see substantial change, and another couple of generations or more to weed out pockets of resistance, which is futile!

While it´s wrong of us to do it, I think people have an ingrown tendency to stratify other people by whatever criteria we choose. Yeah, epski, old habits die hard.

I´d also like to know when we´ll stop ranking people on a ¨coolness¨ and ¨prettiness¨ scale.

Why does anyone believe racism will ever cease? Even those who are not "racist" insist on classifying people into groups. Humans develop different opinions and beliefs, so to think somehow that a particular belief can be eliminated is somewhat stupid. Hell, we still have pedophiles and the occassional cannibal in society, so why do we think we can eliminate racists?

I also think it is incorrect to assume all socioeconomic differences between groups are due to racism. As I stated in the reparations thread, there a lot of other issues at play as well.

Several years ago I was crewing for the friend of an aquantance on his boat. The second trip over I heard them all laughing as I went to get on board. I asked what was so funny. They said look at "the backs" trying to figure out that new hinkely, made some gansta anaconisms. i looked at them shook my head, grabed my bags of gear,and walked off. I went to their dock was given a strange look and asked"can I help you" I said it looks like it is me that can help you guys" they all looked at each other smiled and said if you can teach me how to this Ill buy you dinner... That night I had dinner with Scottie Pipen and Michael Jordan..

I dont look at the color of people and judge. i do judge prison wanabes who werar their pants under their butts (which in prison says they are avail) as morons caught in a fashion nightmare. i do agree that blacks have in the past have had problems with loans...but this is credit related and falls to money mgt not race esp now with automated laon process. I disagree with so called Black student union on College campuses as this serves to make race an issue, and I believe that majority of race issues are fueled by the comunities of said race. If there were a WETV, there would be a race issue but with BETV there is none...in Jerry magurie Cubas with Said " you are a beautiful proud black man" if rene z had said to tom cruise "you are a beautiful proud white man" there would have been out cry and protests. there is no fair way to go about race except to forgo it...and those who wont forgo are the ones who want to the most.

I think everyone has some tendencies that could be called "rascist" or "prejudiced" by some, and they aren't really able to be eliminated.

Different racial and ethnic groups, as well as socioeconomic groups can have different general cultural tendencies- dress, food, attitudes, etc. People like to think we are all the same or that we should never generalize, but yet some generalizations, if recognized as mere generalizations can be made. And people generally feel less comfortable around people with whom there are cultural differences. That discomfort, fear, or hesitancy to get to know, or even dislike based on those differences could be considered racism. Likewise, the stereotypes we all have due to life experience, media images, etc. can turn into prejudice if we let them have too much influence over us.

No not all people of one race or ethnicity are the same, but I think it is naive to think there are not difference generally speaking that cause misunderstanding and discomfort between groups.

Here's an example- on The Bachelor, the one African American woman, Karin, went on a group date with three white women at a water park. The white women assumed she was, "high maintenance" because she didn't want to get her hair wet. This idea of AA's not wanting to go swimming is probably related to the AA's are less bouyant nonsense.

There is some truth to AA's and swimming, and it is due to different kind of hair that tends to be damaged or get frizzy from going swimming. This is something that many AA's people have explained to us white girls when we had swimming in Highschool as to why they all wore caps.

A general difference that is misunderstood or seems strange and leads to assumptions.

Another example, in a research project I heard about, several AA women said they were angered when they saw women fliping their hair with their hands because they thought the women were trying to show off their long, straight hair. Complete misunderstanding.

Other differences we can see are things like whites can't dance or sing or whatever. From my experience, whites can often be much more reserved in public- quieter, less likely to shake it, etc. Cultural difference. (and of course I am not saying all whites don't shake it and all AA's do.)

But I definitely believe there are many people who honestly are not suffering from mere misunderstandings but flat out feelings of prejudice and racism, but they may just keep it closeted. But as a white person, I am privy to disrespectful comments and jokes so yes, these unapologetic attitudes still exist.

ETA- I here whites say things like racism is in the past, etc. etc. and it makes me so mad. Like, how would they know????

I constistantly see prejudices against my father because he can't see. Like while we are shopping, if dad asks a question to an employee working there, they give the answer to me and not him (not all the time). Or they'll speak to him much more loudly and slowly than needed because he's blind. Of course, this may just be in people's ignorance on how to relate to a blind man. In the case sometimes of how different races treat each other it may be the same. Ignorance due to lack of interaction. Back when I was very very young, maybe 18, I worked with a beautiful black girl. We went to lunch together one day. I saw another woman who had the most beautiful suit on. So, I said to my friend " Oh look at that colored woman's suit. Isn't it just gorgeous?" Well, as quick as I had said it she was asking me "What color is she?" in the most irritated tone she could possibly muster up. See, I wasn't aware that referring to African American people as colored was offensive as I had limited interactions growing up. I learned a small leason that day and moved forward. So, my opinion is most of what is perceived as racism is ignorance on the part of the person and not the race itself.

Add since 9/11, I see prejudice and down right hatred for people who look like they may come from Iraq/Iran. Some of the woman look intimidated even to be out in the grocery store. I feel very sad for them.

Yeah, prejudice probably won't ever be entirely eradicated from society, any more than theft and killing have been eradicated. But most parents don't foster the values of theft and killing to their children, while I have quite literally heard parents fostering racist attitudes in their children. This is what will eventually go away. Racism will become as universally reviled as necrophilia, even if a few disturbed individuals continue to engage in it.

>>Why does anyone believe racism will ever cease? Even those who are not "racist" insist on classifying people into groups. Humans develop different opinions and beliefs, so to think somehow that a particular belief can be eliminated is somewhat stupid. >>

I didn't ask, "why does stereotyping and prejudice still exist". I'm wondering why racism (as measured in the original post) continues to be rampant.

>>I also think it is incorrect to assume all socioeconomic differences between groups are due to racism. >>

I'll have to check out your posts. Well, my argument for the rampant racism hypothesis is that biological explanations have no validity whatsoever, and the cultural explanations I've seen are pretty weak.

>>Different racial and ethnic groups, as well as socioeconomic groups can have different general cultural tendencies- dress, food, attitudes, etc. >>

Right, but how is it that these cultural tendencies would result in vast disparities in economic outcome?

ebola
np: meshuggah

An interesting point with regards to hair Thalia. My wife (of mixed races – four in the last few generations) has hair that is naturally very curly. If it is not straightened, it looks something like Velcro. She normally keeps it straight, but even a small amount of rain, or just really humid air will cause it to curl. Straightening it back out is a pain, and takes about an hour to do. You can understand why then, she and other women with hair like hers, don’t like to get it wet.

I'll have to check out your posts. Well, my argument for the rampant racism hypothesis is that biological explanations have no validity whatsoever, and the cultural explanations I've seen are pretty weak.

I don't think the differences are biological, and I don't think they are inherently cultural (as in African-American culture in some way accepts/creates/promotes unwed mothers or so forth). I do think that many factors contribute more to the socioeconomic differences than racism. Children that grow up without fathers are statistically more likely to become involved as a juvenile with the criminal justice system, are less likely to succeed at school, become involved with drugs, etc. Now, we know currently the majority of black children are growing up without an involved father. See a connection? I do. The question is why does this occur? Why now more than in the past? Racism may be a simple answer, but I think it falls well short of the mark. Racism doesn't explain why "my baby daddy" and "my baby momma" became acceptable when African-Americans had a strong history of close family bonds after slavery.



>>Different racial and ethnic groups, as well as socioeconomic groups can have different general cultural tendencies- dress, food, attitudes, etc. >>

Right, but how is it that these cultural tendencies would result in vast disparities in economic outcome?


Not cultural tendencies - but differences within minority populations (which as I said, I don't believe are inherent to those groups.)

Everything you said up there has been spot on. I think some confusion may have arisen because we are using different definitions of racism. I was thinking of racism on instutional terms. I was thinking of the systemic tendencies of our social structure that lead to disparities in outcome between various minority groups as opposed to the actions of isolated racist individuals.

ebola

Everything you said up there has been spot on. I think some confusion may have arisen because we are using different definitions of racism. I was thinking of racism on instutional terms. I was thinking of the systemic tendencies of our social structure that lead to disparities in outcome between various minority groups as opposed to the actions of isolated racist individuals.



Oh, hell. We agree on something. Now I'm getting a craving for Mr. Pibb and Funyons. damn good thing the Cubs and Sox didn't make the World Series, or I would know THE APOCALYPSE is UPON us.
:D

Lol.

After a weekend trip to AL to visit my parents, I can tell you racism is alive and well. :rolleyes:

When I use the word racism I'm not referring to single persons and their actions, but to societal differences. If that makes sense?

--

I also feel that racism is just a lack of understanding and exposure. I grew up in the whitest state in the country (Vermont, 98.7% white) and in the whitest county in Vermont (not to be confused with the whitest county in the US.) Up until around 4th grade (when we started going on class trips) I had only seen one black person and he owned the general store in my town. While he was a really nice man I was still nervous recieving change from him because I had never touched a black person.

Naturally, I think it's just silly now, but even two years ago when I first moved to Boston and started cashiering I still thought "black person!" whenever I saw one. Now that I've lived in New Orleans for over a year, sometimes I'll go out with friends and be two hours into the evening before I realize I'm the only white person in the group!

--

The People's History of the United States makes an interesting argument about how and why racism started in the United States. In some southern states, the black population started to surpass the white population. If ever the poor whites, the indentured servents, the slaves, and the Native Americans rallied together, they could have easily overthrown the rich white elite. So laws were inacted, whether knowingly or unknowingly, that kept these forces apart. Blacks weren't allowed to be educated, different races weren't allowed to marry or to socialize, Native Americans were nearly disreguarded altogether. These laws helped create some of the racism and misunderstandings that still exist today.

I think the US, in general, is becoming less racist. If the above paragraph/argument is true however, it's hard to believe that racism can ever be done away as long as it can be created. I'm sure the world is far from through with governments that create and foster hate.

>>Now I'm getting a craving for Mr. Pibb and Funyons..>>

LOL, I have no idea how you consistently pick snack food I actually hate. And Funyons have dairy to boot. Can we make it RC Cola and Rold Gold pretzel sticks?

ebola

mrb:
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See, I wasn't aware that referring to African American people as colored was offensive as I had limited interactions growing up. I learned a small leason that day and moved forward. So, my opinion is most of what is perceived as racism is ignorance on the part of the person and not the race itself.
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What you exhibted was mild unintentional racism. YOu saw it, and corrected it. While people of both black and white appearance like to pretend this is a serious problem, it is not. The serious problem is malicious, stronger racism -- which still exists, to a substantial degree, but is often hidden because it is socially unacceptable.

Tame writes:
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I don't think the differences are biological, and I don't think they are inherently cultural
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Huh? If they aren't biological, and they aren't cultural -- what are they?

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Not cultural tendencies - but differences within minority populations (which as I said, I don't believe are inherent to those groups.)
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Huh? What? You've lost me. Are you trying to say that not all black americans share the same cultural activities and ideas with all other black americans?

Do all white people chew snuff and eat beef jerky? No, of course not.

No-one thinks racism can be "done away with." It is a normal human fraility, that we should try to reduce to a minumum. However institutionalized racism is a very different thing than personal racism due to human fraility -- and we must strive to remove institutional racism from our institutions, as rapidly and completely as possible.

Yes, real racism still exists, and I'm not referring to prejudices and misunderstandings that come from lack of exposure to people of different races. I see/hear it all the time. Ebola, I don't think it is as widely looked down upon/despised as you think. It's just gone underground a little, but people when people feel free to express it, they do.

mrb:
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The serious problem is malicious, stronger racism -- which still exists, to a substantial degree, but is often hidden because it is socially unacceptable.



I disagree. The malicious, strong racism is not a major issue. For one, it's confined to a relatively small number of whackos. It's relatively easy to deal with, because these groups are quite vocal and not at all subtle (KKK, skinheads, etc.). They are easy to find. The actual amount of damage these groups do is miniscule.

The real and much bigger problem is the smaller, quiet, between the lines racism that is so pervasive in this country. It is very, very common and the effects are cumulative. It affects real policy and real people's lives.

In school, whenever there is a program on racism, the film inevitably shows the Klan or skinheads. They do this because they want an obvious target that is easy to find. To me, the conclusion of those films is that we should be able get rid of the Klan and the problem will be solved, right, it's just that simple. In reality, the issue is much more complex, more difficult to pin down, and millions of Americans are complicit.

I´m in agreement with Tame and veganinohio. Oh my gosh... I better go wash my mouth out--I just said I agreed with Tame.

veganinohio writes
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For one, it's confined to a relatively small number of whackos. It's relatively easy to deal with, because these groups are quite vocal and not at all subtle (KKK, skinheads, etc.
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I've seen it among quite a number of people, and they are not vocal about it unless you ask or the subject comes up -- they know better than to be openly racist -- but they are clearly racist. About 3/4 of my relatives, while I was growing up, were this way. Within the family, they said the most vile racist things -- a New York City public school teacher among them -- but they knew better than to say this stuff publicly, or among strangers. Since then I've had about 4 taxi drivers in the last year, make racist remarks, to off-white me, about the black fares -- after the black fares got out of the car. These racists are not exhibiting mild, inadvertant racism. They are exhibiting intentional, malicious, and hidden for the most part, from verbal expression, racism. But it comes out in the way they treat people, and in many cases they have enough power so that they can make life more difficult for black people than they can for white people, intentionally, but without publicly stating it. These are the people who, for example, don't ren't apartments to black people who are equally qualified to make the payments and do the upkeep, as the white people they rent apartments to. There is no way to prove, in our legal system, that this is what they are doing, but it is what they are doing. It isn't mild unintentional racism -- it is intentional, and designed to deprive black people of things.

I believe racism starts in the heart of a child, taught by his/her parents. It came walking into my first grade class every year. The hatred and fear was already in place on both sides of the racial/color line by 6 years old. And is was getting worse not better.