Without going into a long explanation - I'm having trouble with my kid, and I need some advice.

My daughter is 15 years old. She's pretty much a typical teengager (doesn't clean her room, procrastinates, boy crazy, stays on the phone too long, etc.) - so the "normal" things I'm fine to deal with.

The problem that is driving me to distraction is school work.
She wants nothing to do with it.

This has been a problem since day one in school. It seems worse now, but I think it's only because she's a teenager and is more bull-headed about it all.

Each night the mere mention of the work "homework" sends her into a meltdown. I finally get her to bring out the homework, and I stay with her in case she needs help. I am 100% there for her - yet still that's not enough. Last night in the middle of math homework she burst into tears and locked herself in the bathroom!. She's a spirited girl normally, but well within normal range for a teenager. Only when it comes to anything school related does this completely irrational behavior manifest itself. It's bizarre, and it scares me.


Her testing over the years shows she's of normal intelligence (though lacking in some areas). Nobody has been able to identify any specific learning disabilities (she's been and continues to be evaluated).

I feel like if she would just "buckle down" and stay on task she'd be able to keep up - but she won't do it (no matter how much support I give her). I feel like tearing my hair out.

Recently I had her go see a counseler feeling that there is something outside of school (family life etc. etc.) that may be causing this. He's not a psychiatrist - just a family style counseler at our Family Service Center.

I spoke with the counseler today - only about the school thing. We talked a long time, and he did make me feel better (sort of). He asked me what I wanted to do about the school thing, and I told him I'm at a loss. I am also afraid that the whole stress over school might end up pushing her over the edge (I'm thinking suicide here - this is how worked up she gets over it). He told me that some children aren't meant to be in a typical classroom school environment. He suggested I look into her going to a vo-tech type of school.

I've never heard of vo-tech school, but he assured me they are everywhere (except here of course - but I'm moving to the states this coming summer).

Sheesh - this ended up being long anyway didn't it?

Well, my questions are

1.) Has any other parent dealt with this?? (major emotional distress over school)

2.) Is anyone familiar with Vo-tech schools - if so, what is their opinion?

3.) Is it wrong for me just to want to keep my daughter from totally frizzing on life no matter what the cost? (ie - not finishing traditional school) Am I copping out? I feel like I am, but I don't know what to do.

Thanks for listening :)

The first thing I'd do is to sit down when school work is not on the agenda, and have a family meeting about homework. Ask lots her lots of questions about what the specific issues are and how you can help. Let her know that homework is non-negotiable (as I'm sure she already realizes), but you are willing to do whatever needs to be done in order to help her get through it.

My daughter is six...and I do see this down the road for us. We have battles over homework in first grade, and I honestly have to say is that sometimes, when all else fails, I find that my leaving the room has the greatest effect on getting the homework done. I leave and tell her that when she finishes X amount of work, I will come back and look at the work and help her move on to the next part. I've done this twice this year when there have been meltdowns. And what I've found (though honestly I'm not speaking for a fifteen year old and I know that, but the bottom line may be the same) is that the meltdown itself is a form of work avoidance. That's not to say it's fake in the least. It's extremely sincere! She wants to feel sorry for herself, and she wants ME to feel sorry for her, and coddle her about how hard things are. However, this is a trap I've begun to refuse to get locked into. So....I will put up with a little sniffling, but when things aren't going well, and I realize she's 'pulling' on me emotionally, I just make it very quick and painless. "Madison, I'm going to go read. Please call me when you've finished this work." Once I am out of the picture, and there's nobody to divert her attention, but she knows she can get me back when she finishes, she will ultimately settle down to work very quickly. She can do it, as you've probably realized about your daughter...she can. Just doesn't want to. So when I come back, and look at the work she's done, I always make sure to let her know she's worked very hard, and has been successful. The follow up is KEY.

I do agree with your councelor that the traditional school environment is really NOT for every child. I work in Montessori, and I wish now that I had gotten my own daughter into Montessori early, as I think it would be much more appropriate for her 'sensitivities' than public school is. I actually think that public traditional schools are very 'overwhelming' for some children. I think in terms of TOO MUCH. Too much in terms of stimulation, noise, and this antiquaited expectation that children must sit still, be quiet and LEARN. We know now that all children do not learn this way. So if your daughter is as you say "Spirited", as mine is...traditional school MAY be very hard on her...the homework could be a reminder of that.

I'd also like to suggest a book. The Difficult Child: The Nurtured Heart Approach. It offers lots of suggestions for dealing with problem areas in children and teens that are non-traditional and extremely successful.

Good luck
B

I'm not sure I have an answer to your specific questions, but it sounds like something is upsetting her. I find it hard to believe that math homework could bring someone to tears. Maybe one of her teachers is on her case or one of her friends is not treating her well.

I'm sorry to hear about your problem and hope a solution arrises soon.

I find it hard to believe that math homework could bring someone to tears.

First, just for Artichoke - your feedback is great, about her possibly having difficulties with her teachers and friends, but I just wanted to say that math homework brought me to tears for 4 years until I didn't have to take any more math. As soon as Algebra started in the 8th grade, I JUST DIDN'T GET IT. It made absolutely no sense to me and still doesn't. I sweated blood just to get C's all the way through trigonometry in 11th grade, and then I was done (I didn't need any more math to graduate). I've not taken another math class since then. So I can see melting down over math, or any subject for that matter where you're incredibly frustrated and feel stupid.

As far as your daughter, marie, we're having some of these same difficulties with my stepson, who is 13. It's so confusing to us - he'll do the homework, but then not turn it in (?????), he won't do it at all, he'll do a half-assed job, whatever. And the infuriating part is that he just doesn't care! I'm still not sure what the answer is. Removing privileges, meeting with his teachers - none of it is working. We're meeting with his school counselor again tonight - we'll see how it goes.

As far as vo-tech schools go, we have an excellent one in my area. The stereotype used to be that only the dumb kids went to vo-tech, but that perception has changed radically, at least where I am. The vo-tech school seems to be a good choice for those kids who are overwhelmed by academics, and want to feel that they're learning something "useful." My husband went to a vo-tech school - he's one of those people who just can't see the value in "learning for learning's sake" - he needed to be doing something concrete. So I think vo-tech might be a good choice for your daughter.

And her going to vo-tech is not "frizzing out" - if she truly hates regular high school, you don't want her to get to the point where she quits school altogether. Hang in there...

hmm...fear of failure ?

I thought vo-tech meant vocational-technical schooling- trade school. Well math and homework is used there, too. I don't think it is the subject matter, but perhaps a variety of other things- personal life, lack of confidence, learning-teaching style, problems with the teacher, hormones, depression, what have you. Could be any combination.

The only thing can I suggest is going to a psychologist who specializes in this sort of thing.

What kind of school does she go to in Japan?

A friend of mine who was in Japan on a short exchange 'thing' told me that Japanese students were (in general) more driven and motivated about schoolwork then over here. Maybe such an enviroment is frustrating?

:hug: I'm sorry you are going through this. I'm an educator and not a parent, here's my POV.

I also think that her outbursts are maybe more than meets the eye. You mentioned that you have taken her to be evaluated. I have worked with teens for 8 years and I have learned that teens are really adept at masking the real issue. I had a student who was evaluated 10 times by 6 different psychiatrists. All who pronounced him "normal". It wasn't until he was in college that was finally diagnosed with Dyslexia. He had to let his guard down and let himself be helped. Moral of the story, it's real easy to fudge the diagnostic tools and dodge the shrink. Judging by what you have written it seems that there is a degree of emotional immaturity. It seems that she is unable to say, "Hey mom, I'm really frusterated with this math problem do you think I could get some help with this?" Instead she is acting out her problems and not solving them. Help her understand that it's not the end of the world if she doesn't "get math" right away.

The voc tech thing.... It annoys me to know end when teachers use voc tech as a 'dumping ground' for students who have trouble learning. It's not any 'easier' than traditional school. I suggest before checking out this option to consider what other educational options are available. (Homeschooling? Charter school? Alternative high school?) Take a step back and help your daughter make an inventory of what she likes to do and what she doesn't like to to. I'm tooting my own work horn here but... http://www.icpac.indiana.edu. It's very "Indiana centric" but there are some good tools for education and careers that anyone can use. If vo-tech is something that is interesting to her, then encourage her to go for it.

Best of luck!

Well, I'm 17 years old -- just a few short years away from 15 -- so I'll throw in my perspective.

Everything warrants drama when you're 15 years old. Everything. And no one wants to do homework, so as a teenager, you'll do anything to get out of it. You'll wail, cry, scream, bang on walls, anything to get a little attention. Furthermore, you, as her mother, are really the only person that can give her "permission" to not do her homework. So she's hoping that you'll let her out of it. But if she's capable of doing her homework -- she should do it. Period. She's old enough to know the consequences of not doing it, and they're not pretty.

Besides, what can you really do, when it comes down to it? All through her life, she's going to have to do some kind of hated task. She'll have to have a job, even though she probably won't want to. She'll have to pay the bills, even when she won't want to. Aren't there a million things like that in life? She has it easy now -- all she has to do her homework! Of course she doesn't want to. Who does?!?

School isn't a dream world. It's distressing. It's hard. It pushes you and makes you cry. But you deal and move on in a few years.

So if she's not showing major signs of depression in other areas of her life, don't worry about it.

My 2 1/2 cents worth (given that my kids are only halfway to teenagerhood, I don't think I'm entitled to a full 5 cents)...

My oldest (9 1/2) does this now, so I'm kind of dreading what will happen once he hits adolescence!

With him, it is a perfectionism issue. Despite appearing to all intents and purposes a normal, messy, scruffy 9 year old boy, he has extremely high standards for himself, and gets absolutely frustrated if he can't do things perfectly the first.

So, his room is messy because he gets so freaked out by how much work is involved in getting it to his 'clean standard' that he can't start.

I think he lacks the one step at a time gene (as do I). He sees what is expected of him, or what he expects of himself, but can't see that it is the little steps that will get him there.

And as for maths - oh dear god. Same principle applies - he sees what the 'right' result is meant to look like, or what he thinks his teacher expects, but can't see how to get there. So he gets frustrated, turns it on himself, gets mad because he thinks he's an idiot, then refuses to do it because it makes him so mad.

So with him it was a matter of breaking things down into what he needs to do, and what he THINKS he needs to do, because often they are very very different.

You've probably tried all this already - it's a bit presumptuous of me when I haven't hit the dreaded teenage monster stage yet!

Good luck - just try to ensure she knows that her schoolwork isn't her, if you know what I mean. That school is just one of the electrons floating around the nucleus or core that is the real her, and that whatever school does or doesn't achieve for her, it doesn't affect who she is as a person.

xxA

It's so confusing to us - he'll do the homework, but then not turn it in (?????)

I used to do that. Sometimes I left it at home or in my locker or something, but most of the time it was because the teacher made it confusing. For example, if I happened to be in the bathroom or the guidance office or what have you when the teacher collected the homework, I would be confused and not know whether it was collected. There were a lot of circumstances that were much more complicated. I still do stupid things like this. I missed an art assignment last week because my teacher told me the specifics were listed on the board but for the life of me, I couldn't find them. I felt to stupid to ask him again. I think a huge reason why some students do badly is that they're embarrassed to ask questions and clear up little misunderstandings that get blown way out of proportion. I've had this problem since I was in about the second grade. I'm a senior now and still struggling with it.

dvmarie, I don't think anyone has specifically mentioned depression or anxiety...if they have, I apologize for being redundant. But I know that that was always a huge problem for me. Your daughter really sounds a lot like me, actually. I used to cry every day over missed homework assignments. I wouldn't do them because I just couldn't handle it. I was just so unbearably miserable that I couldn't possibly stand to do something I hated. Does that make any sense? It's just really hard to be in the middle of a panic attack, or trying to pull yourself out of a deep depression, and then you have to sit down and do algebra. When I'm like that, all I can do is sleep, read and watch television, and asking me to do anything else would be like asking you to go back to high school for another six years. It felt that impossible to me. I just couldn't force myself to do it. I don't know if that makes any sense at all...

Anyway, your daughter sounds a lot like me because I would do basically all the same things. If I was depressed and anxious to begin with and then I realised I had homework on top of that, it was very stressful. Then if my parents started pressuring me, it would just make me feel that much worse.

Anyway my point (you were probably wondering when I would get to that...) is that maybe you should look into the possiblity that your daughter might be seriously depressed. You said she was in counseling, which is good, but possibly a prescription medication would help. If her problem is depression, then don't worry too much. It's always difficult, but there are certainly ways around it.

By the way, I don't think sending her to an alternative school would be a bad thing at all. If that's what she wants to do, that is. Have you thought about a performing arts school? If she's into anything at all artistic (including fine arts or writing) that might be an option.

I hope this helps.

Thank you all for your thoughts on this. I really do appreciate it.

Bethanie - "She wants to feel sorry for herself, and she wants ME to feel sorry for her, and coddle her about how hard things are. " I think you have something there, and it's good to hear someone say it. This is part of the issue I'm sure. When it stares me in the face - I see I need to address this.

Artichoke: "Maybe one of her teachers is on her case or one of her friends is not treating her well." I spoke to her last night. Indeed - she is having a tiff with her best friend (and her teachers are ALWAYS on her case - as they probably should be" :)

Firebird: "As soon as Algebra started in the 8th grade, I JUST DIDN'T GET IT. It made absolutely no sense to me and still doesn't. I sweated blood just to get C's all the way through trigonometry in 11th grade, and then I was done (I didn't need any more math to graduate)." Me too! It wasn't until college when I had to take remedial math during the summer in order to enter my freshman year that I got an outstanding teacher who helped me so much. After that - I did so much better! I am always telling my daughter what that teacher told me "Think of math like any game - in order to play - you just need to learn the rules" :)

"And the infuriating part is that he just doesn't care! I'm still not sure what the answer is. Removing privileges, meeting with his teachers - none of it is working" Same here. I get some response with routine. At 5:30pm we start homework and she works while I make dinner - at 6:15 we take a break and eat dinner - at 6:45 we start some more homework - if it gets done - she can go on the internet 30 minutes. Doesn't always work this way, but I at least get results some of the time this way.

1Vegan: Yes, I think this might have something to do with it. She feels inadequate - that is for sure, and I think she feels "why try? I'm not as smart as the other kids anyway" - I try to give her positive reinforcement, and I lavish the praise on things she knows she is good at (she is quite an artist, and while her English grammar isn't the best - she writes incredibly interesting stories)

Thalia: I agree she might need specialist help. That's why I brought her to the family counseler. I thought it was a good first step. Hopefully he will make further recommendations on other help she might benefit from.

Finlay: She goes to an American school here, but the school does have quite high standards.

MonkeyandBunny: "teens are really adept at masking the real issue." Yes - this is very true. Her counseler is even confused (though she hasn't gone long).

W00t: You are a very grown up 17 year old :) Your post made me smile. Like Bethanie's post - it's good to see this written by someone. Kind of reinforcing (stiff upper lip and all) :)

Ama: "just try to ensure she knows that her schoolwork isn't her, if you know what I mean. That school is just one of the electrons floating around the nucleus or core that is the real her, and that whatever school does or doesn't achieve for her, it doesn't affect who she is as a person." THANK YOU! This is so very true, and I try to do this with her. She is truly a gem - and she has a lot going for her. This school thing is just a speed bump in her journey :)

Everything warrants drama when you're 15 years old. Everything. And no one wants to do homework, so as a teenager, you'll do anything to get out of it. You'll wail, cry, scream, bang on walls, anything to get a little attention. Furthermore, you, as her mother, are really the only person that can give her "permission" to not do her homework. So she's hoping that you'll let her out of it. But if she's capable of doing her homework -- she should do it. Period. She's old enough to know the consequences of not doing it, and they're not pretty.

I don't really agree with some of that. Well the part about doing anything to get out of homework, although that is true, I will do anything to not do my homework, but it's not because I don't want to do the homework..As such.. but
if I don't understand, or think I might not do to well I don't bother.. Or else I leave it to the last minute...and really stress about it..

And the part about attention.. Normally if I'm screaming/banging on the walls.. etc.. I don't do it for attention... Normally the opposite.. Because I'll just want everyone to leave me alone..

I cry a bit too when it comes to school work.. generally I do above average.. and I never study.. But if we have to do homework (because of our school system you have to do a certain amount correctly to pass the year) and I just don't get it... ie.. parabolas.. they suck.. grr... I hate it.. I'm not even a crier!!!

Maybe your daughter just gets fully stressed about things... That's what I get.. Then I cry.. scream.. shout.. slam doors.. etc... Since when your 15, as I am too.. School is your life... Whether you like it or not.. You are there most of the day.. 5 days a week.. Normally most of your friends are there... and you get graded in it too... So if one thing goes wrong then it's easy for the rest to all go bad as well..

Maybe she feels pressured to do well that she's scared of failing... I always seem to think it's better to not do something then to do it and fail.. So then I don't do somethings in school...


I think about schools and all.. When she's calm you should ask her what she would do if it was up to her..
And if she choses something unrealistic.. such as leave school.. Then sort of make a comprimise/encorparate that into the solutions...
Ie.. she can leave her school.. but she must go to another one..

Meh, that probably wasn't any help.. But I think the best thing to do is make her feel like she's in control with whatever.... we love being in control.. or at least under the illusion that we are..

My problem in high school wasn't the homework - that i would breeze through no problem - it was actually going to school. lol. If i could have done it all correspondance I'd've been a champ.

Maybe reassure her that she doesn't have to be the best at anything, and that high school is just a really irritating stepping stone you have to get through to be able to do what you really want. Once you're out of high school, no one expects you to be good at everything anymore. You pick a major, the thing you're good at and interested in and you do it. No one asks you to do math or science or english if you don't want to. (well, where i went to school they didn't. haha) college ruled.

An alternative plan that my friend came up with only after graduating high school (which he hated as well) is drop out at 16 and take the GED, pass it, go onto community college for two years, get really good grades, and then you can get into any college you want. Better than trade school if you ask me.

A bit of consolation:
I have been where you are with 2 sons who didn't like school. They are both high average intelligence. One is ADD without hyperactivity. He didn't improve until we got him on medication. His attitude in school didn't improve until his choir teacher "discovered" him and pushed him in something he was good at. He went to TriState his senior year. Sang at Washington with the State choir from the Bapitist church. He still hated school, but music got him through. He finally got his degree and that was like pulling teeth also. The last year when I would worry about his homework, he would say Mom, trust me. I bit my tongue and he got A's and B's. It was just a point of his maturing. He has worked two years at the same job now and is sucessful.

The younger one wouldn't do work or turn work in unless passing depended on it. C's were enough for him. He was grounded, and that never worked well. He has taken one year of college. And now doesn't want to go back. He wants to work and get that almighty dollar. We are negociating on this point as we speak, but there comes a time when you have to realize the stubborn mule headed type may just have to learn the hard way. My consolation is he is a great employee, and they are both good men, compassionate, responsible in all areas other than education.

I have learned to back off a bit, and pray like crazy. Don't dispise the small beginnings of your miracles. Remember, God loves her even more than you do.

i was average at school but at math and sciences i could never understand. i would stare at the numbers and they would mean nothing to me. i even got how your daughter did many times. you just get so frusterated at what your doin u feel like **** for not be ing able to understand it. expecially with a parent there saying you can do it if you try harder or "buckle down " as you say. not that im blaming you, im saying thats what my dad always did to me. "you could do it if you wanted to " oh thats a favorite.

Wanting to understand it, is part of the problem (imho).

People who just sit there and believe what the teacher says have no problems with it.

Wanting to understand WHY it is as it is get's you into trouble.

I agree with firebird. I was an almost perfect straight A student in junior. Got 5 As and 1 B. One of those As was maths. In senior, I did abstract maths, and it didn't make sense. It still doesn't. If I can't see it's practical application, I cannot do it. I failed. And failed. And still the maths teachers said to my parents "she can do it, she is really good at maths, she's just not trying". But I was. And my teacher was the sort that made you feel stupid if you asked questions. Maths was the first (and only) academic subject I failed. If I'd done practical maths I would have been fine. The problem is, about the rule saying... what if you cannot understand the rules? The words fit together but when you try to apply the rule, it doesn't make sense? And you TRY to understand it, but you just can't. It's like a hearing a foreign language with no translator.

I also wanted to add to Ama's post... at 15 I was at my most depressed. I shared very little with my mother. I actually didn't cry much, I bottled it all inside. If she's sharing things with you that's a good sign.

I had the same blank with math. I was so lucky when I finally got a teacher who was able to make me see it. She was the word problem queen - every day when we walked into class there was a cool word problem on the board. Something we related to. Unfortunately they don't make teachers like that very often.

Yes - I'm glad she shares with me. I'm really lucky there. We pretty much just have each other, so we've always been really close.

I had a similar problem when I was 15, only my problem was getting my English papers done. (I'm now a writing major in college, LOL). I would sob and storm around the house wringing my hands and screaming. Literally. I wasn't being a drama queen or trying to get out of the work, it just made me that anxious. As others have said, I think that extreme perfectionism was an issue--the possibilities for failure as I stared at that blank white page were just too overwhelming.

In the end what helped most were antidepressants and forming an honest relationship with my English teachers where I could let them know my feelings on this matter. That was really important. I would suggest looking into schools where your daughter can form close relationships with her teachers, where she can realize she doesn't have to be perfect and that school is about learning, not about flawless performance. It sounds like you're being really supportive--keep it up!

I just came from a meeting at my daughter's school.
They are going to evaluate her for special needs. Some IQ type tests, and also emotional health evaluation.

She's going to get a counseler for sure, and she'll definately have a learning skills class. What else I'm not sure. I have a meeting with a counseler too - I guess so I can offer input (or maybe to see if I'm a fruitcake and that's why my kid is struggling.....:) )

I feel better knowing that I'm not the only one who is concerned. I'm glad that there's the possibility that things can be improved. We'll see. I'll post the progress (in case their might be other people in the same boat as me).

this is probably over-simplifying things, but when i was a teenager my mom would ask me to do the simplest things (like unload the dishwasher, clean, whatever) and i'd just burst into tears. everything just seemed so overwhelming. i could only ever do things when everyone left the house and i was home alone.. i was also slightly anemic, and when i started to take iron supplements regularly, i got less cry-y, and still when my iron gets low i find myself bursting into tears and not being able to cope with anything. out of soymilk, *cry*, have to work today, *cry*.... it's really annoying...

anyway, just might want to check that. teenage girls are often low on iron. i was a meat eater then, too. didn't help.

I agree with the others who suggested homeschooling.

Home schooling isn't a good idea for us. I work full-time (and am a single parent) for one. More importantly - I am pretty sure I'd be a terrible teacher. If I could afford it I'd get her a full-time tutor.

I just came from a meeting at my daughter's school.
They are going to evaluate her for special needs. Some IQ type tests, and also emotional health evaluation.

She's going to get a counseler for sure, and she'll definately have a learning skills class. What else I'm not sure. I have a meeting with a counseler too - I guess so I can offer input (or maybe to see if I'm a fruitcake and that's why my kid is struggling.....:) )



Have these tests been done and have you had a meeting with the counseler already?

If yes, do you feel better now, and what are your daughters thoughts about it?