Animal products in traditional cultures

[Clarita Osita]

I looked around for a thread on this and didn't see one, but if someone knows one please feel free to direct me to it :)

I'm curious about people's reasonings for veganism, animal exploitation, and traditional cultures. I'm NOT questioning whether veganism is good or bad, because I am slowly going back to being mostly vegan (as much as I can be where I live, which is a whole different thing). I recognize the benefits of it. But when it comes to traditional cultures, I have to question myself.

I recognize that tradition is a stupid argument. Traditionally, in most societies, women have been powerless and abused, as has anyone that isn't milky white. But in many cultures, animal products are considered sacred - in many Native American tribes, for example. The issue of cultures where they are necessary to survive is a bit different, as that's often related to poverty.

If we could eliminate animal abuse - in the typical sense, not in the animals-are-not-commodities-AR sense, but in the factory-farms-cruelty sense - where would you stand on traditional societies' use of animal products?

That was long and complicated, but hopefully made sense. Basically, do you feel it's wrong for traditional cultures to use animal products, not specifically for survival? Why or why not?

Thanks.

[Greyham]

I don't really understand what you mean when you make the distinction between animal abuse in the 'typical' sense, as opposed to the 'animal rights' sense. Surely the rejection of the inherent rights of non human animals only leads to a slippery sloped towards animal abuse?

As far as non-survival uses of animal products - its a no no. A huge, fat no no. There is no way in which you can respect the rights of non human animals while using them in this way.

That said, when it comes to these extreme survival based situations, or in the cases of people who live in areas where there is no way they can survive without the use of animals, it becomes a really sticky subject.

[Sevenseas]

I think that "culture" is really no justification for anything. I also think that it is problematic to treat other cultures as these sacred entities that are above criticism and whose members are unable to understand any arguments originating from a Western point of view. That kind of attitude strikes me as rising from the same place as the stereotypical view of Native Americans as innocent and pure, reinforced by some parts of popular culture. That kind of an attitude is less about equality and more about paternalism or condescension.

I am familiar with the accusations of ethnocentrism or moral/cultural "imperialism". But I think to recognize someone as a subject of criticism is a precondition of treating them seriously as an equal.

Cultures change and evolve. But no change based on ethical or political reform would be possible, if cultures were treated as sacred and if criticism of some aspects of them would be censured on the basis that those aspects are a part of that culture.

So, I feel that when faced with an occasion for commenting on a traditional culture's use of animal products, it is appropriate to present moral criticism.

[Sevenseas]

Most importantly, whereas there may be some plausibility to the claim that human rights are a Western construct, the same cannot really be said for animal rights. Given the pervasiveness of animal exploitation in Western societies and in Western thought, animal rights is just as "radical" an idea in a Western context as it would be in a non-Western context.

To promote animal rights in a non-Western context would not be about trying to assimilate all cultures into some idea of Western culture -- for animal rights do not exist on any large scale in Western culture either. To advocate for animal rights in a non-Western context would not be about imposing a Western moral norm into another culture, but rather to promote an idea that is "radical" and in a sense external to all cultures. Animal rights arise from something that transcends geography: the ability to sense and feel and want and suffer, which all humans around the world have in common with non-humans around the world.

[rissierissie]

There are ways to modify the traditions so that they no longer promote cruelty but continue to celebrate and honor the culture that created the practices. If anything the lack of cruelty will make these traditions that much more beautiful.

As an example... consider practice of bull fighting... a cruel and vile cultural tradition. It could be a thing of beauty if the quote unquote fight were turned into an interpretive dance of sorts with the bull being represented by a Chinese dragon style puppet. So much more of the culture could be incorporated into the practice with the inclusion of music, traditional dance and costume than is allowed for in the current form.

[Greyham]

It can be very problematic in todays day and age to attack a certain cultural belief on any grounds for fear of being branded discriminatory. By criticising the practice of using (for example) tiger livers in traditional chinese medicines i am not criticising the chinese culture, but the abuse of an animal.

I recently got into some trouble and branded an islamophobe for criticising the practice of Halal butchery (amazing, given that as a vegan i'm against all kinds of butchery, but the context of the discussion was that as a religious practice it is above the judgement thrown at 'general' butchery).

If any part of a belief, whether traditional, cultural or religious, is inherently unethical, then that takes precedence over anything else

[SomebodyElse]

I recently got into some trouble and branded an islamophobe for criticising the practice of Halal butchery (amazing, given that as a vegan i'm against all kinds of butchery, but the context of the discussion was that as a religious practice it is above the judgement thrown at 'general' butchery).

Oh the same thing happens here too. I recall a thread where some people got accused of bigotry for targeting Halal practices.

I will never understand why primitive hygiene practices and the avoidance of consuming spiritually "unclean" animals are respected because they are based on religion, but those of us who actually have moral reasons for treating all sentient animals as worthy of being left to live their own lives without interference from human ones are ridiculed. Old religions incorporated these dietary laws simply to keep people from getting sick, not because the animals have any moral significance. There is nothing respectable about that.

[Montyruth]

Tradition is nothing but habit and bad traditions are bad habits.

I have never been one for tradition but that is a result of breaking away from a hyper-conservative religious sect/cult. Having realised that my entire tradition was a crock of ****, I have little respect for tradition of any sort.

If it's a GOOD tradition, that is based on compassion and care, then I'll respect it. If not, then it's just a bad habit that must be challenged.

I think the Western world as well as 'traditional' cultures are both marked by traditions that need to be updated. Imagine if Christianity had remained 'traditional' and resisted change? It's had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century in order to be viable. Same goes for our food industry I reckon.

[Clarita Osita]

That's what I was looking for, thank you!

[Cedre]

good read. I just wanted to add that the slaughter of seals in Canada is toted as tradition as well. What a horrific tradition to hang on to! One of the few times that I am shameful to be a Canadian.

[Clarita Osita]

good read. I just wanted to add that the slaughter of seals in Canada is toted as tradition as well. What a horrific tradition to hang on to! One of the few times that I am shameful to be a Canadian.

Now that's one of course I would object to. But you guys are right, it's tough to remember that this is in fact NOT a western ideal, and disagreeing with use of animals is not an attempt to westernize other cultures. I guess it's an ingrained belief, but this whole thing is a tough and confusing concept for me to think about.

Thanks for your answers!

[pavut]

It's my opinion that we who are westerners should definitely focus on our own animal abuse issues before those of other cultures. Factory Farming has to go first before we can ever tackle the issues of smaller cultures where people eat meat to survive or on a small scale, etc.

I would encourage a vegan diet for anyone, anytime where it is possible. Where it isn't possible, then eventually it should be made possible. It just seems like this might be easier if we dealt with our own culture's issues with animal products first.

I hope I made sense.

[MrFalafel]

Now that's one of course I would object to. But you guys are right, it's tough to remember that this is in fact NOT a western ideal, and disagreeing with use of animals is not an attempt to westernize other cultures. I guess it's an ingrained belief, but this whole thing is a tough and confusing concept for me to think about.

Thanks for your answers!

What advocates of native cultures won't easily admit is that a lot of the cultural practices are relatively new or alterations of ancient practices. They will also not admit that these cultural practices have always changed, been created and discarded through history. Just drawing a line on a calendar and saying 'this the date when the culture is frozen' is ridiculous.

A healthy culture grows and changes and adapts to many things all of the time. Adapting a historical cultural attribute to current events is not an issue. Cultures that do human or animal sacrifice can continue the spirit of these actions without killing animals through effigies or even pinatas or similar. 'Don't attack our ancient culture' is a cop out excuse for being resistant to change.

[MrFalafel]

It's my opinion that we who are westerners should definitely focus on our own animal abuse issues before those of other cultures. Factory Farming has to go first before we can ever tackle the issues of smaller cultures where people eat meat to survive or on a small scale, etc.

I would encourage a vegan diet for anyone, anytime where it is possible. Where it isn't possible, then eventually it should be made possible. It just seems like this might be easier if we dealt with our own culture's issues with animal products first.

I hope I made sense.

I disagree. The countries with the fastest growing per capita consumption of meat and animal products are India, China and other emerging nations. We need to step in NOW to curb this trend by spreading the facts of the impact of animal foods on the environment as well as impacts to human health.

[pavut]

I disagree. The countries with the fastest growing per capita consumption of meat and animal products are India, China and other emerging nations. We need to step in NOW to curb this trend by spreading the facts of the impact of animal foods on the environment as well as impacts to human health.

I actually also agree with you. I had not thought of this when replying, but you're right. We still need to also tackle our own factory farming system.

I mainly meant that rural peoples, tribal peoples, those who either use meat to survive or on a small scale for their own village, etc. can probably wait on the priority list. Those who are industrializing and getting more affluent, and starting to demand more animal products, yeah those populations need to be addressed more urgently.

[Cedre]

I disagree. The countries with the fastest growing per capita consumption of meat and animal products are India, China and other emerging nations. We need to step in NOW to curb this trend by spreading the facts of the impact of animal foods on the environment as well as impacts to human health.

What i've heard is that the reason why India and China are growing in consumption of meat is due to the increase in their incomes...which means that they now can afford meat. Maybe in that situation it would be good to hold on to their traditions.

[whatisreal]

I think there are alot of interesting points people have brought up, who commented so far to this thread.


I'm curious about people's reasonings for veganism, animal exploitation, and traditional cultures. ... I am slowly going back to being mostly vegan (as much as I can be where I live, which is a whole different thing).

women have been powerless and abused

The issue of cultures where they are necessary to survive is a bit different, as that's often related to poverty.


What is "traditional"? (considering relatives to time and space) There could be many many many tribes of non-animal-exploiting individuals around the universe who for longer than this planet(if it is a planet we reside on) has existed. And so to them nothing involving animal exploitation may be considered "traditional".

Does someone have the right to force human women to have babies against the woman's choice? What if the one's forcing the woman are living a way where they claim that they are doing "as much as they can"///

What is "survival"?
Would someone have the right to steal our '"transportation", in their attempt to survive?
Survival is not just about the moment, is it?

These are just questions, this is not an attack on anyone.

[MrFalafel]

What i've heard is that the reason why India and China are growing in consumption of meat is due to the increase in their incomes...which means that they now can afford meat. Maybe in that situation it would be good to hold on to their traditions.

Their traditions seem to be to eat as much meat as they can afford. Meat is also seen as a traditional status symbol. Do you really want these traditions to continue?

[Cedre]

Their traditions seem to be to eat as much meat as they can afford. Meat is also seen as a traditional status symbol. Do you really want these traditions to continue?

No, not at all. However, I was under the impression that in India tradition was for them not to eat meat as they saw the cow as a sacred entity (well the Hindus). And from what I've been told, traditionally all meat amongst Hindus is considered as sacrilegious. That's the tradition I was implying. However, I guess that's considered now as old fashion (or I may have been misinformed)...just like the hijab is in many moslem contries.

[MrFalafel]

No, not at all. However, I was under the impression that in India tradition was for them not to eat meat as they saw the cow as a sacred entity (well the Hindus). And from what I've been told, traditionally all meat amongst Hindus is considered as sacrilegious. That's the tradition I was implying. However, I guess that's considered now as old fashion (or I may have been misinformed)...just like the hijab is in many moslem contries.

You can order beef in many restaurants in India. There are beef butcher shops all over Kerala, for example.

Also, many traditional religious vegetarian communities are 'allowed' to eat meat on certain occaisions if they can afford it. Many children of traditionally vegetarian families are eschewing vegetarianism for Western oriented lifestyle of meat and animal products.

Plus, even in India, there are all sorts of issues with animal cruelty in the chicken, dairy and other animal product industries. These industries are growing in India, too.

As the population of India is well over 1 billion, shouldn't they be targetted with vegetarian ideas over the 300 million of the USA?

[Cedre]

You can order beef in many restaurants in India. There are beef butcher shops all over Kerala, for example.

Also, many traditional religious vegetarian communities are 'allowed' to eat meat on certain occaisions if they can afford it. Many children of traditionally vegetarian families are eschewing vegetarianism for Western oriented lifestyle of meat and animal products.

Plus, even in India, there are all sorts of issues with animal cruelty in the chicken, dairy and other animal product industries. These industries are growing in India, too.

As the population of India is well over 1 billion, shouldn't they be targetted with vegetarian ideas over the 300 million of the USA?

Oh that's exactly what I meant above, that due to their economical growth they can now afford meat and hence forgotten all about the cow being sacred and other meats being sacrilegious. There are so many religions where one or many aspects have been forgotten or become lenient due to modern times. However, in this case it has caused more suffering for the animals. That's why I was saying that maybe in this case holding on to tradition would have been good!
While India becomes less vegetarian, more people in the west are adapting their meals and choosing Indian food due to it being vegetarian friendly.
When I first went vegan, I ate mostly Indian food, as I hated tofu, and Indian food is perfect, as it's very balanced in it's corporation of legumes (high in protein), starch and vegetables.
Mr. Falafel, we are basically saying the same thing. The only thing we aren't in agreement is that traditionally, in India the diet was mostly vegetarian. May I ask why? Of course, I could be wrong, but all I have said above is what I have learned from my Indian friends. :confused:

[African_Prince]

I looked around for a thread on this and didn't see one, but if someone knows one please feel free to direct me to it :)

I'm curious about people's reasonings for veganism, animal exploitation, and traditional cultures. I'm NOT questioning whether veganism is good or bad, because I am slowly going back to being mostly vegan (as much as I can be where I live, which is a whole different thing). I recognize the benefits of it. But when it comes to traditional cultures, I have to question myself.

I recognize that tradition is a stupid argument. Traditionally, in most societies, women have been powerless and abused, as has anyone that isn't milky white. But in many cultures, animal products are considered sacred - in many Native American tribes, for example. The issue of cultures where they are necessary to survive is a bit different, as that's often related to poverty.

If we could eliminate animal abuse - in the typical sense, not in the animals-are-not-commodities-AR sense, but in the factory-farms-cruelty sense - where would you stand on traditional societies' use of animal products?

That was long and complicated, but hopefully made sense. Basically, do you feel it's wrong for traditional cultures to use animal products, not specifically for survival? Why or why not?

Thanks.

I don't believe that there is any justification for making moral distinctions between humans and sentient, non-human animals so I would be against exploiting non-human animals for food even if it could be done without causing them to suffer. Non-human animals have as much of a vested interest in surviving as they do in not suffering (I will admit that, between the two, I think avoiding extreme suffering is even more important than surviving but I have the same view in regards to human life).


As for tradition, culture evolves. I value my African heritage but some African customs are immoral and outdated. I'm not going to pretend otherwise out of some dogmatic respect for 'tradition'. I don't believe that anyone is justified in killing non-humans if it isn't a matter of not starving to death. Even then, I don't think we're morally entitled to kill non-human animals for food anymore than we are to kill other humans for food.

[MrFalafel]

Oh that's exactly what I meant above, that due to their economical growth they can now afford meat and hence forgotten all about the cow being sacred and other meats being sacrilegious. There are so many religions where one or many aspects have been forgotten or become lenient due to modern times. However, in this case it has caused more suffering for the animals. That's why I was saying that maybe in this case holding on to tradition would have been good!
While India becomes less vegetarian, more people in the west are adapting their meals and choosing Indian food due to it being vegetarian friendly.
When I first went vegan, I ate mostly Indian food, as I hated tofu, and Indian food is perfect, as it's very balanced in it's corporation of legumes (high in protein), starch and vegetables.
Mr. Falafel, we are basically saying the same thing. The only thing we aren't in agreement is that traditionally, in India the diet was mostly vegetarian. May I ask why? Of course, I could be wrong, but all I have said above is what I have learned from my Indian friends. :confused:

There are many different religions in India, Hinduism is just one of many but covers 80% population. Hinduism, it can be argued, isn't a religion full of 'dos and don'ts' but a way of life. There are many Hindus who are vegetarian but there are many Hindus who eat meat. It isn't a prerquisite of Hinduism to eschew meat. This is where many people get confused.

The main reason for vegetarianism in India is(was) poverty, not religion. Sure, vegetarianism became a way of life for many religious people and many meat eaters will adopt a vegetarian diet for certain religious events but will go back to eating meat when the religious event is over.

Vegetarianism is not fashionable at all for the younger Indians. I've spoken to many Indians who were raised vegetarian but as soon as they got to college and working in the 'big city' gladly started eating meat along with their other college educatated, western orientated friends. Vegetarianism is what their poor rural grandparents did, not today's young hip city workers!

This is why I think targetting India and China with the other benefits of vegetarianism as opposed to their traditional religious/poverty based reasons for vegetarianism is a very good idea.

[Montyruth]

In the school where I teach in Leicester, half my kids are Anglo-Indian and most of those second generation. A few have recently immigrated. The kids who were born here in the UK laugh at those that they call 'freshies' and mock their vegetarian diets, clothing and accent. I have questioned them about this, saying that essentially they're mocking their grandparents and parents, but they find it hilarious to see kids their own age wearing traditional clothes and speaking pidgin English.

My brother is married to a Sikh girl who is also second generation Indian but lives in Canada. She and her siblings and her dad and uncles eat meat and drink alcohol. The older women tend to be teetotal and vegetarian out of respect for their religion and culture.

It has certainly become old fashioned among the Indian kids here to eat a vegetarian diet. For that reason I like to give all my students a project for their persuasive writing entitled 'Vegetarianism - for or against' but set them up with lots of stuff from the youth section of Animal Aid who have supplied me with DVDs and plenty of literature! Most of them end up arguing FOR vegetarianism but still don't adhere to it very well.

Ah, kids...but education is the key.