Perhaps this belongs in Veg*n Issues, but I'll ask here anways...

My Uncle and cousins are avid hunters. They'll always telling me "There's a limit on how many we can kill" "We're keeping their population in control" "If we didn't hunt, they'd be killed by cars and other predators" blahblahblah. MY problem is, I don't have the facts to back up my argument, the belief that killing an animal, no matter by what means it is killed, is wrong. Are their arguments truly factual??? where can I find information to counter such attacks on my morals???

"We're keeping their population in control"

That is such bull****; it's presumptuous for humans to assume we need to control populations.

"If we didn't hunt, they'd be killed by cars and other predators"

Many people around the world suffer from starvation; if only we hunted them, they wouldn't slowly die of hunger.
But.... where are the hunters? They only care about the non-humans! Hunters, while above the average omnivore, are still worthless hypocrites.

Here you go-

http://www.peta-online.org/fp/hunt.html

Why not take up wildlife photography instead? Perhaps even more of a challenge than using a gun.

Why not take up wildlife photography instead? Perhaps even more of a challenge than using a gun.
I guess there is a difference between someone who thinks of taking a picture of beautiful wildlife animals and those who want to shoot them. I can't understand how someone could actually come across a deer and can't just look, spellbound, at how amazing it is.
I always say the idea for humans is to learn how to be more and more compassionate everyday. Is it compassionate to kill? It can easily be argued that there are too many humans but no one says we should hunt humans. Actually, I do. I think hunters should all go out in one area and try to shoot each other. Just for sport. I know that sounds like nonesense to hunters but killing animals sounds like nonesense to me.

Perhaps this belongs in Veg*n Issues, but I'll ask here anways...

My Uncle and cousins are avid hunters. They'll always telling me "There's a limit on how many we can kill" "We're keeping their population in control" "If we didn't hunt, they'd be killed by cars and other predators" blahblahblah. MY problem is, I don't have the facts to back up my argument, the belief that killing an animal, no matter by what means it is killed, is wrong. Are their arguments truly factual??? where can I find information to counter such attacks on my morals???

There is a more relaiable and harmless alternative. Its called PZP.

Read through their web site thoroughly.
http://www.pzpinfo.org/

Usually Profit>Life so alternatives are sort of shoved into a closet and ignored by the mainstream. It does have its uses in areas where hunting is illegal or unfeasible.

The Fund for Animals offers some of the best information critical of hunting.

An Overview of Hunting
http://www.fund.org/library/documentViewer.asp?ID=70&table=documents

Whitetail Deer: Creatures or Crops?
http://www.fund.org/library/documentViewer.asp?ID=261&table=documents

State Wildlife Agencies
http://www.fund.org/library/documentViewer.asp?ID=511&table=documents

Hunting Contests
http://www.fund.org/library/documentViewer.asp?ID=461&table=documents

Living with Deer
http://www.fund.org/library/documentViewer.asp?ID=11&table=documents

Hunting. How I loathe it.

"We're keeping their population in control"

This is a shock impact statement. Hunting, I believe, in fact increases population. Even this is besides the point when you consider: If your goal is to attempt to decrees population, when why do thing such as game farms exists?
Answer me this: Why has Deer population gone up in the most heavily hunted states?
In 1998, The state of Wisconsin had a Deer population of 1,600,000 and 469,555 Deer were killed in that year. 4 years later, in 2002, the Deer population had risen to 1,650,000. Why? Because by removing some of the Deer herd in one area, you reduce competition for food. This in turn triggers a sort of breeding frenzy, turning the whole area into a fawn factory.
Consider this.
Farmer bob just built a farm. The 500 Deer in the area begin to eat his corps. Farmer bob asks for help. Declare a hunting season open. Hunters move in, and beside damage not involved in this equation, 150 of the Deer are killed. Season ends, hunters leave, and remaining Deer are left alone for the time being. Now that there are fewer Deer, there is more food. Remaining Deer will now eat their fill, and as things go, more food means more Fawns, more twins, and thus, more Deer. When hunting season arrives once more, there are now 700 Deer.(assuming that there is still a natural Buck-Doe ratio of 1:1 and few twins are born) Again, Hunters kill off 150 more Deer. This leaves the total amount of Deer after two hunting seasons at 550.

“If we didn't hunt, they'd be killed by cars and other predators”

It is a known fact that the amount of Deer-Car deaths happens during hunting season. Be warned, when using this, hunters will tell you that this is because of the breeding season, when Deer are wondering around looking for mates. This is not true. More then 5 times the amount of Deer hits are reported during hunting season then at any other time of the year.

Good luck, and know that you are saving lives.

Thank you thank you so very much, you guys! It's a shame that there are hunters/fishermen in my family that will never truly see my side of things, but perhaps this can get them thinking.

[QUOTE=goatee] I can't understand how someone could actually come across a deer and can't just look, spellbound, at how amazing it is.QUOTE]

I know! that reminds me of a time when i was walking home from my friend's house once. A doe scampered out from the woods next to the road and stood right in front of me. We stared at eachother for a about a minute before she ran away. Heh, sorry...kinda pointless but hey...I love wildlife

A doe scampered out from the woods next to the road and stood right in front of me. We stared at eachother for a about a minute before she ran away. Heh, sorry...kinda pointless but hey...I love wildlife

I completely understand the feeling, skunkpumpkin :)

I remember when I was a kid and a lionness jumped on my car i sat there in awe. I couldn't imagine how anyone could ever hurt them.
My SO calls me Dr Dolittle cuz whenever I come across a wild possum or wallaby etc i have to stop and talk to it and they never seem to run away, they just sit and stare. So he thinks I'm wierd. Then again he thinks I'm odd cuz I talk to Ella (kitty).

When Australia was first colonised, farmers and authoritiarians alike hunted koala. Koala are the laziest animal in the world and spend about 22hrs a day sleeping and they don't move very much. Anyway these stone-hearted hunters would shoot them. The koala would cry and scream like a human baby. They nearly wiped out the entire population.

Skunkpumpkin, I know these people are your family members, but I cannot understand how anyone can look into the eyes of an innocent animal and then steal it's life. It's wrong and hunters are heartless.

I agree whole heartily Eup. :)

Population contol? What a terrible argument. It kills me every time I hear about a bear, or other animal, being killed because it is wandering out of it's natural habitat and into someone's property causing a safety risk for those people.

Step back a minute and look at the big picture. Sure a family that has a bear frequenting their property may be at a higher risk of being attacked. But why is that bear there in the first place? Because the stupid humans are destroying their habitat by building roads and houses etc.... so where else are they to go?

Why are new housing developments and roads being constructed? To support the ever increasing human population. So if hunting is used to keep a population in check then how about we start hunting humans more. Deer and other beautiful animals are hit by cars because those roads have crossed into their territory. Those animals were there first and humans have invaded their areas.

So if hunting is used to keep a population in check then how about we start hunting humans more. Deer and other beautiful animals are hit by cars because those roads have crossed into their territory. Those animals were there first and humans have invaded their areas.

Hunting humans more?? you mean we hunt them already??

Im sorry, but I dont hold animal life and human life on the same level. Close, but not quite. That doesnt mean that I am a propnent of hunting, it just makes a lot of these arguments against it a moot point for me. I don't really like killing anything per say. But I am not one to get on my moral high horse and tell others how to live. I would rather be informitive than imposing. Around here at least, it seems to get the message across better. Yes, I know hunters. I know a lot of them. There is no way to live where I live and not know them. There are pro hunting/proMeat billboards everywhere I look but getting in these peoples faces and telling them they are wrong is going to do no good. Instead, I chose to talk to the people I know that I can have some impact on, people who are on the fence about things. Again, I try to be informative, instead of imposing.

Ok so 'more' may not have been an appropriate word to use. Although I think you could consider serial killers human hunters.

Anyway, my point was that population control isn't a good argument for hunting.

Seems like there are many good references here for why hunting is totally unnecessary. It's true, wildlife management does its best to INCREASE the animal population for a bountiful "harvest" for the hunters. The population control argument of hunters is a farce.

In most states (I think in all states) it is actually illegal to shoot a female deer. This is so that the females can go on and have offspring. That's a crazy, absolutely nonsensical way to "control" a population. When they say "control," they actually mean "to make sure that there are plenty around for us to shoot at next year." I suppose this is controlling in a sense, but it sure as hell ain't for the benefit of the deer or the ecosystem or anything else remotely beneficial to anyone other than sport hunters.

When they say "control," they actually mean "to make sure that there are plenty around for us to shoot at next year." I suppose this is controlling in a sense, but it sure as hell ain't for the benefit of the deer or the ecosystem or anything else remotely beneficial to anyone other than sport hunters.
You are exactly right. Even the hunters will agree to that. It is widely acknowledged that you conserve the does so you can have more deer next year to hunt. I used to hunt, and this was one of the ways the population is "managed" to promote as much reproduction as possible to increase the population for the next year. I used to watch the little herds of deer for months until hunting season. By then I knew which could be taken without harming the population. Many hunters practice this way.

Of course, then you have those who come up here from a big city with a too-powerful gun for the conditions, and shoot at anything that moves without thinking about how far that bullet will travel if they miss. People are killed every year due to idiots like that. These are also the ones that shoot and wound, but don't kill a bear so that it goes rogue and starts preying on the people that live around here. They pose no problem until then.

Im sorry, but I dont hold animal life and human life on the same level. Close, but not quite. That doesnt mean that I am a propnent of hunting, it just makes a lot of these arguments against it a moot point for me
You do not have to make an imminent jump to placing the same or more value upon a non-human so much as putting enough value as to not promote wanton abuse. By that term, I mean invading their living space, taking resources, and then killing without thought of pain and merely for self-enjoyment. Or even enough compassion to be repulsed by such abuse as manipulating a population for a never-ending massacre to satisfy some kind of blood lust that destroys the spices and the environment in the process.

Hmmmm . . . after reading that, it seems to be a bit of an attack on you. Sorry if it seems that way, I just wrote as it came and it’s not meant to be an attack on you :)


In most states (I think in all states) it is actually illegal to shoot a female deer.
I believe the way it works is that one would buy a hunting license, giving it (the hunter) a number of ‘tags’ that dictates the number of Does or Bucks that it can ‘bagged’.
That is, that’s the legal way to do it.
Here is a link to illegal Hunting for two months in one state:
http://www.veganvanguard.com/issues/ethical/hunter_legal.html
Good site. Made by a member from here, in fact. Don’t know if he is still around.

Hunting humans more?? you mean we hunt them already??
That's what I was thinking! You must have an inside track on my brain as well as my heart :smitten:

Anywho... JFH I can't believe I'm going to agree with Kurm on something, but I think the human population is so out of control that by the same token as people hunt for control purposes, so should we hunt humans. We mostly cringe at the more benign involuntary widescale birth control methods (and don't get me started on Catholics & Mormons) so I'm pretty sure that there's no hope for open hunting season on Chinese (the country with the most serious overpopulation problem, last I heard).

But then there's the general notion that human overpopulation is just inherently different than animal overpopulation because there is an inherent difference between humans and animals. It's not MY argument, now, but you know what I'm saying. So then we have to go and defend that whole messy thing and I'm just not willing to do that because I have no hair to pull out.

Hey, if I hunt, but by accident (and by being a miserable shot) never hurt nor kill any animals, am I still "bad" ?

In most states (I think in all states) it is actually illegal to shoot a female deer.

From what I know based on family friends and relatives in certain states, the states with the highest deer populations, and most reported problems with them, all have doe seasons. I have family with property in WV and Ohio, and I know this is the case in WV. I am pretty certain it is true in at least part of Ohio and Pennsylvania.

Edited to add -
Found this on the Ohio deer season:
The bottom line is that in Ohio you are permitted to kill one deer per year per hunter. It’s that simple. A resident hunting license cost $20, but you must purchase a deer license for an additional $15 to hunt deer. This permit allows you to kill one deer of either sex.

Interesting. Everything I know about hunting, I learned from hunting with my dad, so he taught me the doe thing. It's been at least 10 years since I've been hunting with him, so the law might have changed, or he was wrong, or perhaps I just misunderstood him.

I didn't look it up.

I still stand by the sentiment of my post though, even if my data was incorrect.

Interesting. Everything I know about hunting, I learned from hunting with my dad, so he taught me the doe thing. It's been at least 10 years since I've been hunting with him, so the law might have changed, or he was wrong, or perhaps I just misunderstood him.

I didn't look it up.

I still stand by the sentiment of my post though, even if my data was incorrect.

VIO, you're right in that 20 years ago it was widely prohibited. Now deer are so much more plentiful that doe seasons and tags are issued in virtually all states that allow deer hunting at all.

Perhaps this belongs in Veg*n Issues, but I'll ask here anways...

My Uncle and cousins are avid hunters. They'll always telling me "There's a limit on how many we can kill" "We're keeping their population in control" "If we didn't hunt, they'd be killed by cars and other predators" blahblahblah. MY problem is, I don't have the facts to back up my argument, the belief that killing an animal, no matter by what means it is killed, is wrong. Are their arguments truly factual??? where can I find information to counter such attacks on my morals???
Contact your states Divison of Wild Life or DNR. They are correct in saying that herd, flock etc management is in effect. A few examples are
Dove hunting, dove populations are explosive they have one of if not the highest breeding rate of any thing, wiht two to four hatches per year of 2 to 6 chicks, now they have an equally high mortality rate annually of 65% or so...there food just gets to scarce, that is one reason why dove hunting, occures in the fall before winter

Another example is Deer. here in Ohio last year hunters harvested 204000 some deer, a record season. the Deer population was estimated at near 500000 prior to the season, the average age of deer harvested is 18 months. Female deer of can reproduce in their first year of life, yielding one fawn, does of age two and beyond normally have two fawns. This years Ohio heard is estimated to be 640000. Approximately 1/3 of all fawns boorn this year will survive the winter food loss and preditors...(Ohio's coyote population is huge right now..some folks in urban sprawl are loosing pooches and cats) so hunters are hunting durring the rut the breeding period for deer, this hunt prior to the winter eases stress on the herd. Now herd management and buck to doe ratios, and which should hunted in a given year for a given area is a diferent topic. The big arena if you will in hunting trends right now is "special urban permits" these permits are generaly for does only in metropolitian areas by archery only, parks and airports have huge deer heards..these deer are hit by motorist, aircraft ( not so much but that damage is worse than that to a car) and as these numbers rise and reach some point special hunts are held, yet one more reason is LYME caused by deer ticks as the pop rises so do the numbers of ticks and LYME is no joke, so bad infact that the Rachel Carson wildlife in Wells Maine is holding a second years hunt for Does only, each hunter drawn must harvest three does, where one is for the hunter the other two are processed at the hunter expense for "hunters against hunger" and distribute to homless shelters and those in need.

many hunters get a bad rap and yes there are some real yahwhoos out there but there are even more hunters that go to great lenghts to ensure animals will be around, just look at the dollars spent by Ducks Unlimited members to preserve breeding grounds, wetlands etc, Pheasants Forever and what they have done, Not to mention the national Wild Turkey Federation who if it were not for them the wild turkey would not be present and thriving in most states, the rocky moutian elk foundation and there reintroduction of elk across the country ( elk used to live in near every state) the list goes on and on and the money from hunting license sales, and various groups is what is paying for over 80% this. we are not all bad.. infact most of us are not unlike Vegans, we want to provide ourselves and famlies with best quality food out there free of hormons and low in chlorestoral...di you know that 8 oz venison has les cholrestoral than 6oz bonless skinless chicken...not that that matters to a vegan I guess...but to us Omnis..in my case TOP OMNIVORS (LOL) it matters, and the skills required in hunting, and all the time spent with family and freinds...for and to me it is unmeasurable...no if I could just find time to work on my spelling and gramer.....
LOL another day
seriously contact your states DNR and speak with them they are very helpfull, and at times they have free seeds for backyard habitats, have officer that will walk a park with you or your land and tell what wilf life thrives here for what reasons, and what can be done to make it better for different spieces.
i hope this is helpfull and if you would like more ifo or have more questions I am happy to talk more about this, but please remember this one thing please
Hunting and Anti hunting are beliefs, and as such are near imposible to change, I am a hunter, I am here to improve my vegitarian cooking skills and thickin my cook book, not to convert anyone to hunting, nor to be converted...so with this in mind....your vegitarian lasagna would be a fair trade.....come on give it up.... :up: