I have recently had the chance to talk to a slaughterhouse worker and asked him a lot of question about the slaughtering process. I was impressed to learn that the jewish tradition of "koshering" the meat is far more painful for the animal than the normal one and opposed to the general belief, "koshering" makes the meat tremendously bad, filling the meat it with all kinds of toxins.

Asked about the reaction of omnis when watching the cows being slaughtered I got the following response: "if people saw this, more than 50% of them would never ever buy nor eat any kind of meat. Actually, a couple of friends of mine asked me to show them the process, and they have never eaten a piece of meat again in their lives".

I then asked omnis how would they react to the bloody scene, and I got a lot of answers like:
"but I don't see it"
"I just buy the meat at the supermarket"
"I'm not the one who killed the cow"
"I buy meat from cows that were already slaughtered"
"it's part of the process"
"we were taught that way"
"if we didn't kill them, cows and sheep would be a plague and they would be everywhere" [like some kind of invasion]

Another question I made to omnis was if they would kill a cow or a sheep themselves for food if they could get food from other source. Almost all of them instantly replied "NO". The ones who replied "yes" have been raised in farm and are used to see the process or they had slaughtered animals in their farms in the past.

However, I have two questions that come to mind:
- Can a jewish be vegetarian? [don't meant to be offensive. I'm close to ignorant about religions and I want to know how the two things can be accomplished]
- What would happen with cows and sheep if we were all veg*an? Where would they live? [this is stupid, but I had to ask]

Good point. I was wondering the other day, when people say "But if they weren't raised for food they never would have lived." By saying this people are admitting that animals are more than just mechanical creatures and that they do get some sort of satisfaction out of being alive. In which case, they wouldn't want to die.

Can a jewish be vegetarian?

I'm not Jewish, but I know there exists a Jewish vegetarian society, so I would pretty much guess so.

However, I have two questions that come to mind:
- What would happen with cows and sheep if we were all veg*an? Where would they live? [this is stupid, but I had to ask]

Exploited animals are bred by humans, so they would not be born into hell in the first place. Non-existence is heavenly compared to being born into a world where you can be tortured at will by a more intelligent and very powerful species that, as a whole, couldn't care less about your pain.

Things we have no control over (that we did not choose) (that we were born into):

Our existence (being born)
Our species
Our gender
Our country
Our race
Our time (in history)
Our parents
Our socio-economic status (at birth)

Think about it. The chances of being born into your circumstances are quite unique and something over which you had absolutely no control. Think about it.

"if we didn't kill them, cows and sheep would be a plague and they would be everywhere" [like some kind of invasion]


Very good argument. I've had the same concern about toilet paper. If we stopped using it today then the whole world would covered with 6 feet of stacked toilet paper within a decade.

Keep in mind that nearly all cattle and most other "production" animals are the result of artificial insemination. This is not a "natural" process, and the process AND the procreation would stop, if we ever got to the place of eschewing animal flesh.

If I was in a state of need (such as on the Survivor show), I would have absolutely no problem slaughtering and animal myself. I have do it and could do it again. In fact, I think that they people on survivor would have done well to have purchased a pig and a goat or two in case of need. When push comes to shove I become pragmatic AS LONG as I am responsible for that animal's death myself.

Very good argument. I've had the same concern about toilet paper. If we stopped using it today then the whole world would covered with 6 feet of stacked toilet paper within a decade.
That's very funny and very true. The whole idea of being overrun by cows is silly.
General thoughts:
We are all making mistakes. I think the idea is to recognize our mistakes and do our bet to live more peaceful and compassionate lives.
Do you wear shirts made in Thailand? Who do you think makes those shirts? Oftentimes children in terrible working conditions.
Do you drive? Cars account for more than half of all air pollution in Western civilization.
So some people eat meat and that is terrible. The key is to try to get them to realize that in a way that will help them. Same with all the bad choices we make in life. We just try to get better and help others too. The problem is that we are habitual creatures and breaking habits is hard. That is why we need to help and encourage each other.
To the person who said they would eat meat on survivor:
Have you ever had a pet that you loved? would you eat your pet to "survive" on the show?

It never ceases to amaze me what a fantasy world most omnis live in.

The ones who at least contemplate the concept of meat eating may come up with stupid ideas as to why it is necessary, but then there is also the majority, who rarely if ever give it any thought. Meat is just that: Meat. It is so second nature to them that they don't even come close to questioning it.

I don't know which group scares me more: the hypocritical or the completely non-thinking omnis.

I like when omnis claim humans are morally superior to all animals and then look to lions for moral guidance: "Well, lions kill and eat zebras in the wild, so why can't we eat cattle?"

If I was in a state of need (such as on the Survivor show), I would have absolutely no problem slaughtering and animal myself. I have do it and could do it again. In fact, I think that they people on survivor would have done well to have purchased a pig and a goat or two in case of need. When push comes to shove I become pragmatic AS LONG as I am responsible for that animal's death myself.

Yeah, a prefabricated television show like Survivor is an excellent example of acceptable animal slaughter, please. This comment made me sick. So long as we do the dirty work ourselves, killing is OK? great, please let this extend to humans. Sigh. OK, people can only live in houses, as long as they build them themselves. Who cares about cutting out the middle man? I have far more respect for someone who is simply brainwashed by our meat-eating society and eats meat "because it's there, so it must be ok?" than someone who would kill sweet little animals themselves. Morbid, depraved & barbaric. Some animals unfortunately are preprogrammed to do this, luckily humans aren't. I would try my best to survive on dirt, berries, twigs & leaves before I would ever hold down a LIFE while it squealed out in pain and live with the horror of having killed it. If I did kill something, for instance in self defense, the LAST thing I would want to do was eat it. How completely disgusting & strange. Oh look, a nauseating dead thing, should I tear it apart (causing my hands to be covered in blood, while retching from the smell) and then EAT IT? hmm, sounds so yummy! :notvegan:

As far as Jewish people being vegetarian or vegan, definitely. There is a whole subculture of Jewish that is exclusively veg, however I also don't know why & how it relates to their religion, if it even does.

If I was in a state of need (such as on the Survivor show), I would have absolutely no problem slaughtering and animal myself. I have do it and could do it again. In fact, I think that they people on survivor would have done well to have purchased a pig and a goat or two in case of need. When push comes to shove I become pragmatic AS LONG as I am responsible for that animal's death myself.

Uh... you see competing on game shows as a state of "need"? I'm cool with you saying "I'll eat meat if it comes down to absolute survival" but really, TV games shows are NOT about survival or need (even if they are called "Survivor"). You really think that the producers would let them all starve to death?

And just as a general inquiry, is it OK to kill my neighbour for pragmatic reasons as long as I'm responsible for his/her death? I mean, I really "need" that video recorder of thiers....

And just as a general inquiry, is it OK to kill my neighbour for pragmatic reasons as long as I'm responsible for his/her death? I mean, I really "need" that video recorder of thiers....
LOL

Uh... you see competing on game shows as a state of "need"? I'm cool with you saying "I'll eat meat if it comes down to absolute survival" but really, TV games shows are NOT about survival or need (even if they are called "Survivor"). You really think that the producers would let them all starve to death?

And just as a general inquiry, is it OK to kill my neighbour for pragmatic reasons as long as I'm responsible for his/her death? I mean, I really "need" that video recorder of thiers....
I think I'm starting to get it. Let's see

1) I agree with slavery AS LONG as I own the slave and I beat the slave when something goes wrong.
2)I agree with the concept of bullying AS LONG as I'm the bully.
3)Shooting people for no reason isn't such a great thing but AS LONG as I'm doing the shooting it should be OK.

Quite a concept.
The way I see it if you are living with someone who eats meat you are either living with a hypocrite or a killer.
Question: If fish had a voice box how would people fish? Could you imagine a big boat with a huge haul of fish screaming and crying as they suffocate to death. Or how about sport fishing with the fish yelling and screaming as the person tries to reel it in.

I agree that killing the animal yourself is even worse than just buying a steak from the store. Despite this, it would probably be better than the current situation if people would have to kill the animals "with their bare hands".

The show Survival is abhorrent. Although I would have many great program ideas to improve it - to make it more realistic, heh.

The show Survival is abhorrent. Although I would have many great program ideas to improve it - to make it more realistic, heh.

I've only seen it a few times and was not at all impressed. Also, the FAKE danger and "difficult situations" do not justify killing an animal. If animals are killed on the show (I don't watch TV enough to know), then it is just another form of animal abuse falling in the "entertainment" category of lame excuses.

Many discussions with friends have been similar. "If I had to kill it myself, I wouldn't eat it" is one of the comments.

It's easy because if i wanted to eat meat, I wouldn't have to kill it myself. I'd just have to go to the shop, hand over some money, and I'm now the owner of a piece of meat. I don't have to deal with slaughtering an animal for myself. That's already been taken care of.

I've only seen it a few times and was not at all impressed. Also, the FAKE danger and "difficult situations" do not justify killing an animal. If animals are killed on the show (I don't watch TV enough to know), then it is just another form of animal abuse falling in the "entertainment" category of lame excuses.


I don't watch the show, but I have seen a few episodes in the past and YES they do kill animals for so-called "survival" right on the show, a wild pig was the first & I've ignored the show ever since. Other survival style shows have followed their lead and let contestants do the same. It's disgusting and I'm saddened there is actually a thread on this board with veg*ns discussing how much they like to watch it :down:.

I'm saddened there is actually a thread on this board with veg*ns discussing how much they like to watch it

I was wondering the same thing. Whatever one thinks about PETA, there is a reason why they have something to say about Survivor. http://www.peta.org/liv/c/9.html

--

The ideas to improve the show I was thinking of were about making it a real survivor show. It's not survival unless you are at a risk of not surviving, i.e. dying, heh. But this is an immoral idea and I don't of course really support it.

I'm not Jewish, but I know there exists a Jewish vegetarian society, so I would pretty much guess so.

Judaism says meat should be kosher but it doesn't say Jewish people must eat Kosher meat, it is a matter of choice as far as I am aware.

Judaism says meat should be kosher but it doesn't say Jewish people must eat Kosher meat, it is a matter of choice as far as I am aware.

I don't think you said what you meant. I am Jewish (by birth alone as I don't practice or believe in any religion as a way to god) so I know that one of the laws of Judiasm is to eat kosher meat. Not everyone does of course and they don't get kicked out of the club for it, but it is a rule of Judiasm none-the-less. Which is to say that as a Jew you don't have to eat meat of any kind, but if you do it must be kosher. And you can't have ANY dairy when consuming meat. And you need separate plates and silverware for meat and dairy.

rigmarole

I don't think you said what you meant. I am Jewish (by birth alone as I don't practice or believe in any religion as a way to god) so I know that one of the laws of Judiasm is to eat kosher meat. Not everyone does of course and they don't get kicked out of the club for it, but it is a rule of Judiasm none-the-less. Which is to say that as a Jew you don't have to eat meat of any kind, but if you do it must be kosher. And you can't have ANY dairy when consuming meat. And you need separate plates and silverware for meat and dairy.

rigmarole

What I meant was that as far as I know there is no Jewish law saying you must eat meat, am I wrong? I didn't mean that meat wasn't required to be Kosher to be eaten by Jewish people, sorry if you misunderstood what I meant :hamster:

I have recently had the chance to talk to a slaughterhouse worker and asked him a lot of question about the slaughtering process. I was impressed to learn that the jewish tradition of "koshering" the meat is far more painful for the animal than the normal one and opposed to the general belief, "koshering" makes the meat tremendously bad, filling the meat it with all kinds of toxins.

Asked about the reaction of omnis when watching the cows being slaughtered I got the following response: "if people saw this, more than 50% of them would never ever buy nor eat any kind of meat. Actually, a couple of friends of mine asked me to show them the process, and they have never eaten a piece of meat again in their lives".

I then asked omnis how would they react to the bloody scene, and I got a lot of answers like:
"but I don't see it"
"I just buy the meat at the supermarket"
"I'm not the one who killed the cow"
"I buy meat from cows that were already slaughtered"
"it's part of the process"
"we were taught that way"
"if we didn't kill them, cows and sheep would be a plague and they would be everywhere" [like some kind of invasion]

Another question I made to omnis was if they would kill a cow or a sheep themselves for food if they could get food from other source. Almost all of them instantly replied "NO". The ones who replied "yes" have been raised in farm and are used to see the process or they had slaughtered animals in their farms in the past.

However, I have two questions that come to mind:
- Can a jewish be vegetarian? [don't meant to be offensive. I'm close to ignorant about religions and I want to know how the two things can be accomplished]
- What would happen with cows and sheep if we were all veg*an? Where would they live? [this is stupid, but I had to ask]


The being raised on a farm I have a hard time stomaching. The actual slaughter is not that gross. The part that gets most people squimish is the gutting, as most people have never seen gutts let alone a gutting where the entrails are spilled out of the body cavity, and when an animal weighs in 1000lbs there are alot of guts. The first time any one sees that they get squimish and wonder why it has to be done, i dont think I could be friends with some one who did not get squimish when an animal loses its life to sustain our own.

Next about peace and "where have all the cowboys gone" a book i am working on that most likely will never be published about natural order in human lives. One example is as a stay at home father I am subjected to some interesting scrutiney durring the day. i have heard coments behind my back of "that is not natural" questioning my ability to nuture children, to "he must be gay" kind of contridiction not worth the time. But the other day while on the play ground two boys were arguing over who got the swing. The argument broke down to a scuff that lasted all of 10 seconds, one boy pushed the other and he punched him back. After recieving the blow the boy began to cry and the other stood by... the two mothers ran freakishly to tthe boys who it turns out are friends (which furthers my position) and the mothers spoke of no hitting ever and the like, which is a good position but not the natual one. See the boys like any male animal were not fighting to the death or going to cause serious injury, but establishing dominace, and a natural pecking order of all animals, and they were scolded for following there nature. Its just not right, when I grew up as a kid I can count and name each person I got into a fight with, 2 of them are my best friends. Sure there were a few bullies, and being freakishly large in my youth i took it upon my self to bash and attempt to bash these bullies who were older and stronger, i had a 50% win rate with them...but 100% sucsess rate in getting them to leave my friends alone. Some say this is wrong but it is natural.
Look at road rage. A person is driving on the highway...they are driving 67 mph in a 65 zone. Passing a truck. Another car traveling at 75mph aproaches from the rear. Instead of being considerate...and obeying the law and keeping at leat 50' behind the other car ahead, this driver aproaches to 5'. Are they trying to get the other car to go fast....make them nervous...both or are the saying I am driving a car that weighs two tons, I am assulting you with a dealy weapon what are you going to do about it. i view this action as an assult with a deadly weapon against every person and child in my car, and I have the right to defend my family. i have on two extremm cases of attack.. stoped my car...gotten out...in one case broke the window of the car behind...removed thier keys and tosed them in to a ditch and across trafic...called the police told them what I did and drove off....neither time has any one filled any charge against me... because they knew what they did, when the endangered my family.
i guess what I am saying is when you support natural order you need to support the whole and not part. i do wish we lived in a world where peace and utopia would prevail...but humans as a whole are preditors..top preditors and as such can not.

I have to disagree with the title to this thread. The Omnies that I know make no bones about killing animals and eating meat. Humans have raised animals for meat, clothing, milk, transportation, etc., for at least 5,000 years, possibly as long as 10,000 years. Most people consider that the natural order of life. Everything dies, one way or another. On the other hand, many vegans deny animals die during the production and storing of their food. They knowingly continue to use animal products in their daily lives, books bound with animal glue, birth control, wall board in their homes, insulin, to list a few. It would be very uncomfortable to do without those things, but to say Omnies are hypocrites because they don't hunt and process their own meat only leaves you open to "do you raise and process your grains?"

i guess what I am saying is when you support natural order you need to support the whole and not part. i do wish we lived in a world where peace and utopia would prevail...but humans as a whole are preditors..top preditors and as such can not.

Natural order? I don't know what your definition of "natural order" is, but my definition is everything that happens is from natural order. Natural order is no way to determine ethics and things that happen in natural order are both good and bad. Some common examples of natural order:

Murder
Rape
Incest
Nuclear bombings
War in general
Terrorist attacks
Pollution

Before you sing the praises of natural order, you should think about natural order's implications.