I've been half-*ssedly following the "Bring your own chicken" thread located here:

http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=10134

I don't have children myself, but I find the anti-child sentiment expressed in some posts in that thread to be disquieting. I'll admit to being annoyed with children sometimes, but I also feel very sympathetic towards parents faced with bad attitudes towards the very existance of their children. I'm sure I'm not the only one who was bothered by some statements made in that thread. Not to turn this into something Compost Heap-worthy, but what do you all think?

I did not see anything anti-children. care to explain?

Some people don't like omnis, some peoeple don't like christians, some people don't like kids.

:elf:

I never really noticed any anti-kids type statements (unless you consider someone saying they don't want to have kids as anti-kids). Instead, I think what might have come across that way is that some people simply don't think that just because someone is a mother, everyone else has to accomodate her. And absolutely, there are indeed some mothers who haul their kids around everywhere and expect everyone else to just accept it. In the case of the restaurant, the mother just took it for granted that the vegetarian restaurant would accomodate her. Of course, perhaps almost any other restaurant would have without question, but this is probably where the negative comments towards infants and their mother's were derived.

I cannot tell you how many times, for example, I've been at the early evening movie at thelocal cinemas (7pm movie) where I've had to endure 30 to 40 minutes of some infant crying cause the mother thought it was a great idea to bring an infant to the movies at night. Some mothers simply expect others to accomodate them just because they have a kid with them.

BTW, I don't have kids, but do like them quite a bit.

I cannot tell you how many times, for example, I've been at the early evening movie at thelocal cinemas (7pm movie) where I've had to endure 30 to 40 minutes of some infant crying cause the mother thought it was a great idea to bring an infant to the movies at night. Some mothers simply expect others to accomodate them just because they have a kid with them.

That's what I like about the downstairs theatre at the local cinema; it has a crying room at the back, which is seperated from the main seating area by glass and has its own speakers, so people with young ones can watch with them from in there.

That's what I like about the downstairs theatre at the local cinema; it has a crying room at the back, which is seperated from the main seating area by glass and has its own speakers, so people with young ones can watch with them from in there.

What a great idea!

It is wrong to torture people with a crying child. :cry:

That's what I like about the downstairs theatre at the local cinema; it has a crying room at the back, which is seperated from the main seating area by glass and has its own speakers, so people with young ones can watch with them from in there.

This has 'discrimination lawsuit' written all over it. :rolleyes:

I have kids and frankly when I go to a movie I really don't want to hear some kid screaming. When dining out, I do sometimes, bring my kids. I do however, expect them to behave and respect the people around them...I am pretty sure as cute asmy ten year old is when he is pretending that he is the red eyes black dragon (yu gi oh) that no one else really gives a flying hoot how cute he is.....

That's what I like about the downstairs theatre at the local cinema; it has a crying room at the back, which is seperated from the main seating area by glass and has its own speakers, so people with young ones can watch with them from in there.

That's what ours has...but our theatre's *really* old. Like, I think it was built in the 40s probably...

That's what ours has...but our theatre's *really* old. Like, I think it was built in the 40s probably...

Ours is too (the upstairs cinema was added within the last decade). I think the building is also heritage listed.

I am one of the people who posted anti-kid sentiments in the thread mentioned. That's because I am anti-kid. Well, not of their existence, exactly. I don't want to have them or be around them (much like cigarette smoke). If a child is well-behaved, I'm fine with it. I understand that kids are kids and will have tantrums and cry sometimes, but some parents seem to tune it out while the rest of us are developing migraines. Some parents, not all.

I've seen kids throw a fit and throw themselves on the floor and be incredibly rude and even hit their mothers or fathers simply because they would not buy them something. It's one thing to set your own boundaries and rules with your kids (or lack thereof), but to subject the rest of us to these un-punished tantrums is rude. I think respect can be shown on both sides - those of us with kids and without.

There's a child-free housing estate/apartment complex somewhere here in Australia.

i second what christy said :p

i find a lot of adults to be loud, demanding and offensive in public places that i'm trying to enjoy myself in, but i certainly don't expect them to stay home and i'd probably get punched out for suggesting it to their faces. children, unlike offensive adults, have a good excuse for throwing temper tantrums or making lots of noise in public...they are just children, learning about the world around them, and sometimes that learning involves temper tantrums and exuberant behaviour. sometimes, you just gotta put up with some crap from the rest of the human race (children included) in order to function in society. unless it is an explicitly adult-only venue, i will take my children there if i see fit and i'll be happy to return the snotty comments and dirty looks that any rude person sees to make towards me for doing so. i am not going to hide myself and my children away from the world or decline going out to eat just because some people are made uncomfortable by the presence of children.

we were all once small, too.

This has 'discrimination lawsuit' written all over it. :rolleyes:

Actually, most parents I know seem to appreciate having "cry" rooms. They allow the parent to deal with a fussy child in relative privacy without missing what is going on. It's good for both the other audience members and the parent who doesn't want the entire afternoon completely ruined.

I'm with Christy on this one.

When I was growing up, I would have been punished severely if I behaved the way I see most kids acting today (no not beatings, but my father had the psychological fear of getting in trouble well-ingrained into us). And the self-righteousness of many of the parents I see absolutely astounds me. So while I'm not going to go out of my way to undermine these people, I'm also not going to pretend that I think I should have to accommodate or accept their unreasonable behaviour. They seem to think that the world revolves around their little family, and while it may for THEM, it doesn't for me, or the rest of the world. A lot of this is not the kids per se, but it is what parents are letting their kids get away with. I was told very clearly from a very young age that no one has any interest in listening to me make noise, or having to dodge me or tip over me because I am racing around like a maniac, being completely inconsiderate to those around me. So.... I behaved. I don't mind a well-behaved kid, it's the rest (and unfortunately, it seems the majority) that I can't tolerate

When I was growing up, I would have been punished severely if I behaved the way I see most kids acting today (no not beatings, but my father had the psychological fear of getting in trouble well-ingrained into us).

some would say that psychologically terrifying a child into compliance is as bad as, if not worse than (in some ways), physically brutalizing them, meatless.

if a child is behaving in such a way that other people are being hurt, that child needs to learn about how to get along in world without hurting other people. this is something we ALL had to learn, and i'm certain none of us got it right the first time adults tried to teach it to us. if you see a child behaving in such a way in public, it would be polite of you to say something like, "oh! ow! that hurt when you bumped into me!" or "hey, that's too loud for my ears!" this kind of reaction is both non-confrontational and does not cast judgement on the child or their parent(s). it's also far more constructive than turning up your nose and stating that you unequivocabley don't like children...it's really the child's behaviour you don't like. it also may turn the whole thing into a teachable moment...something that most parents would welcome far more than dirty looks and judgemental comments.

Kreeli, I have a feeling you're not one of the parents I'm talking about. I used to give ugly looks and make comments, but I've mostly stopped because I know it does no good, and everyone has a bad day sometimes. I know it doesn't mean they're like that all the time and let their kids act like wild animals.

Kreeli, for someone who wants understanding for other parents, you have judged mine quite quickly.

My dad was one HELL of a lecturer. I hated his lectures more than anything. They went on and on, and nothing you could say could make them stop, or make him change his mind. The best way to avoid them was to behave, which I mostly did. Now, maybe that isn't the best way to discipline in an ideal world, but it worked, and to this day I have an excellent relationship with my dad.

Most (if not all) of my comments referred to situations I have seen with my own eyes, so Kreeli, I'm not referring to you. However, I just get sick and freaking tired of having parents and their kids stomping all over my peaceful enjoyment of anything. One time I was in a 7-11 at about 10pm. There was only one guy working, but about 12-15 customers in the store. This woman comes in with her 3 kids, and proceeds to let her kids run wild throughout the store, they had their hands all over everything, were screaming and hollering, and throwing things around. Their mother just stood in the line up staring off into space. The cashier grew increasingly agitated, as it was fairly late and there was a very long line up. Finally, he called out to the kids and asked them to please stop running around and making such a commotion. Well, boy oh boy did that mother ever wake up. She ripped into the poor cashier, yelling at him that he'd better not talk to HER kids, that they're HER kids and to leave them and that she was in charge of them. Uhhh, well act like it. THAT's the kind of parent I have a problem with. And the kind who lets their kid run around screaming, and then when the run into you and almost knock you over instead of apologizing, the parent either a) ignores what has happened or b) laughs and looks at you expecting you to think the kid that has just knocked the wind out of you is cute. Sorry, I won't apologize for having a problem with this kind of behaviour.

And also, I didn't say ANYTHING about REACTING to these people, just that I don't like being around it. Mostly I don't say anything anymore, because they don't seem to care what kind of inconvenience or distress they're causing anyway.

I should note, that I had a nervous breakdown in my second year of University, due to the kids living on the floor of my apartment building. There were three families of them, all crammed into way-too-small apartments, and the noise was unbelieveable. We begged them to quiet down, we pleaded with them, especially the ones who lived directly across the hallway from us. Their reaction? Well, they certainly didn't stop. And the ones across the hallway threatened to sue us for slipping a letter under their door explaining that my SO had to wake up at 4:30am for his job and that we really would appreciate if they wouldn't let their kids run around and hurl themselves against the walls until well after midnight. It went on for another year and a half before we were able to move (shortly after we moved into our apartment rents in the city skyrocketed way beyond our budget so we were forced to endure it for 3 years-- also, even if an affordable apartment was to be found most would not accept cats). The complete disrespect and lack of consideration that was shown us by those parents will forever colour my view on this. I almost lost a scholarship over it, and I certainly lost any enjoyment of my life. Both my SO and I were severely depressed until we got out of that apartment. Countless letters and phone calls to the landlord yielded nothing.

I've heard a story similar to that about a kid in line with his mother at the store where a friend was a cashier. The kid was throwing animal crackers at her, and she asked him nicely to stop ("Please don't do that.") The mother did not try to stop him, and cursed my friend out when she finally said something.

Kids usually don't bother me unless they are really being super disruptive or unreasonably loud inappropriately (and I am not including babies in that. Babies cry.)

For example, when kids are just let loose in a restaurant or store like a dog running high speed without a leash, risking injury to themselves and others. And I do what Kreeli suggests. I try to turn it into a teachable moment. I talk to the child, not the parent. And in a non-confrontational way. like, "You need to be careful, I don't want you to get hurt by the waitress with the hot soup.." and loud enough to get the parent's attention.

But as far as when I was a kid, my mother could not afford babysitters and had to take us everywhere. Once when I was like 2 I had to go with them to their nice anniversary steak dinner which they could barely afford. I was creating havoc. My dad tried talking to me privately, but that failed. So they did what unfortunately they had to do. They told the waiter to box it up and they left.

On other occaisions my mother would do the same thing. If we didn't behave, she left, leaving a huge shopping cart if necessary. We started behaving in public pretty soon after a few times of that.

Of course I do not remember most of this, so who is to say I was a perfect child? :D

Restaurants don't bother me, when it comes to crying children. I can enjoy the food with or without noise. Movies do bother me. Why? because I need to *hear* the movie in order to enjoy it.

A couple fusses and whimpers are one thing; crying, seating kicking, yelling, talking for 2 hours is another.

I have a 15 minute rule for full price movies. If I've paid full price for the movie ($14 here), I will complain to management about anyone who's child is making disruptive noise for more then 15 min. If I'm attending a cheap theatre ($2-3.75), I do not complain and let the kids make the noise.

meatless, i apologize if i came across as though i were judging your father. when you said you were "punished severely", i thought you meant you were punished severely. in my world, that means emotional and/or physical abuse. when i was growing up, getting a lecture was the least of my worries.

i can certainly understand why you would have felt put upon in the examples you gave. the 7-11 one, though, although the children were noisy, and the mother was having a very hard time taking care of them, it seems a little harsh to get so upset considering you were only going to be in their company for a few minutes at most. from the sounds of it, their mother was feeling pretty harried and spaced out, which is perfectly natural at 10pm with three wild children. i'm exhausted by 5pm with two.

the apartment situation is a little more complex. i understand it caused you a great deal of grief. but i think there are a lot of underlying social problems that contribute to huge famillies having to live in small, cheap places. instead of being angry at the famillies themselves, your anger would be better directed at the social circumstances that placed them in such an inappropriate housing situation, in my opinion. i lived in a low rent apartment complex for a year and dealt with noise problems from all sides, whether the people in the apartments around me had kids or not.

there have been times where i have had to walk my children out of various establishments, usually because they were reacting to being overstimulated or overtired. sometimes, it's not possible. i only get one chance a week to do my grocery shopping so if they are freaking out there, i just try to get through it all as quickly as possible. i do feel bad for other people having to listen to my baby crying or my son whining, but i take consolation in the fact that those people will only have to hear it for 15 or 20 minutes, while i am subjected to it for an hour or more at a time. ;)

the best thing that ever happened to me in a grocery store line up was when my daughter was about three months old, and she was so angry at being trapped in her car seat while i did the shopping she was screaming her head off, and my son was beside me the whole way whining for everything he saw, and i was trying desperately to get all the food bagged so we could just get out of there and i guess another lady saw how i was struggling and offered to give me a hand. she bagged up my groceries while i held astrid so that she calmed down and she helped me down the car and chatted amicably with my boy. it helped diffuse the whole situation. sometimes a mom just needs little help when her kids are being loud. try offering a hand next time, instead of just building up rage about it.

Screaming and whining in the grocery store doesn't bother me, other then that spine-chilling feel you get when that first, high-pitched squeal goes off. When they start pitching things all over the place, that is a different story. The kids are out of control and should be asked to leave the store. The kids I've seen do this are old enough to be locked in the car by themselves and really should be.

Movies, plays, ballet (who the heck takes a 2 year old to the ballet?!?!?!) - in those cases, I get ticked off pretty fast. If I wanted to play $70 to listen to a 2 year old scream and whine, I would just send Kreeli the $70 and ask her to web cam her kids for me for a couple hours :cry: :cry: :cry: (JK dear. Well, sorta :elf: )